Neil Harding is perpetuating his libellous allegation that I support illegal activity.
This is a fundamental disagreement. He cannot understand why I place him on the reactionary right of the political spectrum for opposing the smoking ban, *supporting speeding drivers and opposing any elected authority he deems are infringing on the rights of drivers.
(*my emphasis)
I have not, nor ever have, supported speeding drivers – this is a lie, plain and simple. Although, as the Devil’s Kitchen points out, lying and Neil are by no means strangers. What Neil is doing here is repeating the libellous allegation made in the comments to this post where he accuses me of having a laissez fair approach to speeding. As an erstwhile driving and motorcycling instructor, I take road safety very seriously and that includes the appropriate and legal use of speed. I do not, nor have I ever taken a laissez fair approach to the use of speed.
This post was never about speeding, nor was it about driving; it was about the burden of proof in criminal prosecutions. The factor that Neil either cannot or will not grasp is that one can acknowledge a point being made without necessarily agreeing with the actions of those making it. To do so requires a degree of reason, of being able to recognise that the world is multidimensional, to be able to recognise the underlying point without becoming bogged down in the illustration.
In the comments of same post where he seeks to take me to task he accuses me of arguing for the liberty of my favoured groups:
You have an absolutist idea of it always being a good thing for your favoured groups. You distort it by ignoring some people’s liberty in favour of others – usually drivers, smokers and homophobes over pedestrians, non-smokers and gays. This is why you are reactionary bigots – firmly on the right of the political spectrum.
Firstly, I am not an absolutist – try reading Samizdata sometime . While I take no pride in accusing Neil of being stupid; frankly, given his persistent attempts to misrepresent points that have been clarified (often repeatedly) it is hardly surprising that my immediate response is tetchiness when I am faced yet again with his inane pronouncements, sweeping generalisations and plain old Labour party dogma presented as if it was fact.
Now, let’s look for a moment at my favoured groups.
I do not own a car. Indeed, I particularly dislike the SUV, regarding it as entirely unsuitable for city driving. Frankly, the school run is a pain in the arse as the back roads become clogged to buggery with these behemoths. How, then, when arguing that people should be allowed to buy them free from penalty imposed by the local council am I arguing for a favoured group? Oh, that’s right, I am arguing for the liberty of a group people with whom I disagree.
I don’t smoke. I have never smoked. It is a disgusting and filthy habit. Yet I can and have argued that people should be free to do so without penalty. How, exactly, are smokers a favoured group? Again, I am arguing that people should be free to do something with which I disagree and personally find obnoxious. Hardly a favoured group, then.
Then there’s the homophobe jibe. Neil was referring to this post where I argued in favour of religious people being free to apply their rules on their property. So, are they a favoured group? Well, like Neil, I am an atheist. I find the homophobic bigotry exhibited by certain religious groups deeply offensive. They are hardly a favoured group, then. Interestingly, if you read the comments to that post, my stance was supported by a gay rights activist; a point conveniently ignored by Neil – but then, when reality contradicts his sweeping generalisations, Neil chooses to ignore reality. No change there, then.
The reason I have not argued in favour of pedestrians (of which I am one), non-smokers (of which I am one) and gays (no, I’m not), is that these groups are not under arbitrary attack by politicians intent upon micro-managing our lives.
To attempt, as Neil does in this discussion, to use the common law principle that liberty ends where it impinges on another’s liberty to justify the behaviour of the council in Richmond or to crush the rights of people who wish to exercise their deeply held religious beliefs is not only absurd, it seeks to misrepresent the principle. After all, if we believed that the act of driving a motorcar infringed on the liberty of others then surely the millions of people who drive would stop overnight; and those guest house owners may cause gay people offence, but they are not causing them active harm, nor are they impinging on their liberty. The common law principle does not apply here as no actual infringement of the liberty of others has occurred.
Contrary to Neil’s allegation, I am neither reactionary nor, for that matter, particularly right-wing. I simply object to control freakery and micro-management of our lives by politicians – that’s not reactionary, that is a perfectly reasonable response to totalitarian behaviour. My tetchiness and short temper is a perfectly reasonable response to persistent idiocy.
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Update: Neil was finally cornered into accepting that I had not condoned speeding:
I admit you have not advocated breaking the law, but when it comes to those drivers caught by a speed camera or parking fine – it is very clear where your sympathies lie. Are you arguing they were somehow not breaking the law despite breaking the speed limit?
My response to this somewhat mean-spirited admission was to ask why he had lied about it in the first instance. A question subsequently ignored and no apology has been proffered. Why am I not surprised? Note also, the illogical conclusions about my sympathies and the weird assumption based upon zero evidence (as is usual) that I have argued that speeding drivers are not breaking the law. My immediate reaction to such arrant fuckwittery is “WHAT!?!” No, even after a second and third reading, is still doesn’t make sense. The only reasonable conclusion is that he makes this rubbish up as he goes along, fuelled by his bigotry.
There was a time when I looked upon Mr Harding as a somewhat simple minded fool – the kind of useful idiot who, like Boxer in Animal Farm would trot out the party line obediently and unquestioningly; not particularly intelligent but harmless, nonetheless. However, on deeper inspection of his outpourings, there is a more sinister aspect. If one disagrees with Neil, one is demonised as a right-wing reactionary – or, if one persists in pointing out the stupidity of his arguments, one is mentally ill. I have been labelled as paranoid, for example. If you follow his rants about religion, you will note that the religious are accused of mental illness; in their case, they suffer from delusions. It is the quasi-religious rants about religion from people like Neil that gives decent atheists a bad name.
We have seen this demonisation and labelling people as mentally ill before in Stalin’s USSR. Neil is the person who, in a different place, in a different time, would have enabled the behaviour of such people to carry out their atrocities. Stalin did not act alone, nor did he have an army of monsters at his command, he had useful idiots who were prepared to follow the party line in the name of the public good – and all those people who were murdered or sent to the gulag were enemies of the state and deserved it. They, too, were right-wing reactionaries and the mentally ill.
Tom Paine asks below in the comments why I engage in a war of wits with an unarmed man – this is why. People need to see Neil Harding for what he is and what he represents.
Oh really , try telling black and irish people that being denied somewhere to stay because of who they are is not an infringement of their liberty? How is being gay any different? You may be a non-smoker, not a homophobe etc, but the BNP claim not to be racist, yet they quite clearly are. This post just makes my point pretty clear.
I notice, Neil, that your petulant little outburst there does not actually address any of LR’s actual comments.
Perhaps I may paraphrase your argument to illustrate:
“Person Y (who might generally be found to be objectionable) says that he does not display quality Z. But he does (or many people generally suggest that he does). Ergo, when Person X (who is entirely unrelated to and, further has gone to quite some length to denounce Person Y, his activities and everything he stands for) says that he does not display quality Q (which is entirely unrelated to Quality R), he must be talking rot.”
More importantly, let’s look at the suggestions you make. You note that LR [says that he] is not a smoker or a homophobe. But you, curiously, stop with an “etc” before the most crucial item: you say nothing about speeding.
Now why would that be? Could it be because this post skewers completely your assertion that LR supports or condones speeding?
Here’s the deal: retract the statement about speeding, apologise to LR for making it and stop making [more of] a complete tit of yourself.
Oh, so I am a closet smoker and homophobe now?
You do come out with some bullshit sometimes. Being denied entry into private property because of who we are does not infringe upon one’s liberty – I know, I’ve had it happen to me. I simply went elsewhere.
Once again, you do the very thing I accused you of; becoming embroiled in the illustration and ignoring the underlying argument. You don’t like it when I accuse you of stupidity; well, fine, stop coming out with stupid statements, then. Start to discuss these matters in an intelligent and adult manner without stooping to logical fallacies, snide and libellous jibes and unfounded sweeping generalisations. Try, just for once to leave the repugnant Labour Party propaganda behind. I’ve heard it all before; it was horse-shit then, it’s horse-shit now.
I’m afraid that you epitomise everything reprehensible about the socialist mindset – mean-spirited envy, spite and control freakery.
I fail to understand why you would engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed man, LR.
This indeed is a fair point. However, seeing the same lie trotted out for the umpteenth time prompted me to nail it once and for all.
Longrider, you tell ’em!
For the record, I am also a non-car owner (as I live in London), but am in favour of turning off the traffic lights.
I am also a smoker, drinker, straight, atheist, if that’s in any way relevant.
In fact, sod it, I have added you to my Top Ten Blogs section and will be dropping in here more often.
I’m honoured, thankyou.
Longrider, you have defended speeding drivers so I have not lied at all and you have also shown sympathy for drivers who have been caught by speed cameras or parking fines. You may not have actually advocated breaking the speed limit – but I never said that at all. I am not the one lying here.
Talk about upping the ante. So I am the sort of person who would guard the gulags and murder to Stalin’s orders and you accuse me of being over the top? I don’t think you are mentally ill and I have never said you were. You can be a bit mad sometimes with your accusations though.
Well LR, I have wasted a large part of today “trying to teach a pig to sing” and got nowhere.
Tip me off if we’re ever going to wage another full frontal assault, but not for a few weeks, ey?
PS, your comments take AGES to load.
Neil restating a lie doesn’t stop it being a lie. I have not, nor ever have defended speeding drivers. Please provide the evidence that supports your libellous accusation. You cannot, because there is none. That you persist in this untruth makes you a liar, it makes you stupid and it makes you malicious.
The Stalinist purges were not carried out by monsters, they were enabled by ordinary people; people just like you who accepted the party line; who accepted that the rights of the majority was somehow of more value than the rights of the minority; people who, if not actively involved, looked the other way and did nothing. The same happened with the Stasi and the Gestapo. They were powerful because people like you either could not or would not think laterally nor challenge the dogma they were fed.
Unlike you, when I make an accusation, I refer to the evidence (although I notice that you have since removed the “paranoid luddite” Technorati tags, still thank goodness for the wayback machine eh?). Paranoia is a recognised mental illness; one from which I do not suffer, despite your allegations that those of us who support NO2ID do. That you accuse those who dare to challenge the control freakery of your beloved Labour party of such is clearly documented in your own writing. It seems you have a short memory, too.
Really?
Kettles, pots, black… Although my allegations are based in evidence – in the case of the parallel with Stalin, it is based upon an observation of 20th Century history and observing the similarities between then and the garbage you are spouting now. Yours are based upon nothing more than prejudice and bigotry. Not only are you being an arsehole, you are being a stupid one with it. Do yourself a favour and take a sabbatical. Go away and learn the art of critical thinking, logical argument and the English language. At the moment, you manage to make Terry Kelly and the truly egregious Bob Piper seem reasonable. Okay, now I am stretching it. 😉
Mark, I’ve no idea why the comments take ages to load – they seem okay here in France on dial-up. Now, for slow, try the Devil’s Kitchen on dial-up…