It seems that Labour supporters are getting a fit of the vapours over the spoof site that mimics Derek Draper’s propaganda site, labourList. I first noticed this over at Chicken Yoghurt where Sadie comments:
If facilitating the ability of Tory trolls to leave hil-LAR-ious gags on LabourList about how Jacqui Smith is a bit of a minger unimpeded by moderation is so important that a blind eye can justifiably be turned on the points that Paulie raises in his post, J., then I guess you’re right.
Oh, fer gawd’s sake, get a grip! It’s a spoof site designed to highlight Draper’s control freakery – and people who disagree with Labour party propaganda are not necessarily “tory trolls” – some of them, like Tim Ireland were asking perfectly reasonable questions (incidentally, reading the correspondence between Ireland and Draper tells you all you need to know about the latter). Talking of which, Sadie links to Never Trust a Hippie where Paulie asks what is in essence a valid question; who is behind the site. It’s not what he asks that is so silly, it is how he asks it and the assumptions he makes.
This initiative definitely won’t be welcomed by The Labour Party, and as ‘libertarian crusaders’ I suspect that you will not be surprised by this. Libertarian crusaders are rarely impressed by the way that political parties try to ‘control the message.’ So are there any examples of ‘libertarian crusades’ that you are conducting against any of the other political parties? Or or you just tories really? In my experience, most ‘libertarians’ – like Lord Hailsham moaning about an ‘elective dictatorship’ during the Wilson government before joining the most centralising cabinet the UK has ever seen in the 1980s – are just Tories.
Groan… here we go again. What is it about Labour supporters in particular who are unable to see the political spectrum as the multi-hued thing that it is. It is not a simple matter of right and left; Labour and Tory, it is more subtle than that. There are more players in the field opposed to Labour than the conservative party. And what the fuck is a Libertarian Crusader when it’s about? I suppose this is another attempt to label people who object to the control freakery of the present administration. The trouble with such labels is that the accused has a habit of wearing it with pride – bloggertarians, for instance. I might just dust off that cape…
Libertarians tend on the whole to be right of centre, but not always and it cannot be assumed that they are. I am libertarian but I am most certainly not a tory. Indeed, I objected to Michael Howard’s attempts to bring about an identity card bill with the same vigour that I object to that of the Labour party. I am consistent when politicians of any hue seek to undermine my liberty – I despise all of them equally. The reason that libertarians are targeting the Labour party in particular is because they are the party of government and they are the party that has systematically dismantled our liberties over the past decade – it isn’t too difficult to figure out.
Nor can it be assumed that the people behind this spoof site are libertarians; they might be, but making assumptions prior to seeing the evidence is crass stupidity at best.
So, by all means ask the question; who is behind Labourist if that is something that concerns you – personally, I don’t care one way of the other as it really is not as important as you would like to believe – but do try to avoid making assumptions; it tends to make you look a bit of an idiot with a sense of humour bypass.
*sigh* We’ve been around this one before haven’t we?
I’m not saying that *all* libertarians are Tories. Just that a significant proportion of them imagine that they are when Labour are in government and then forget about it when the Tories are in.
The Tories conducted the most centralising shift of power in the UK’s history during the 1980s.
The people behind the site *describe themselves* as Libertarian, so I’ve no idea what your penultimate para is about.
And I take exception to being called an idiot by a libertarian – it’s a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Paulie,
How the fuck would you know? It can’t be from blogs, because they did not exist (not in the same form and with the same access) when the Tories were in power.
And I wonder how many people that you met twelve years ago who described themselves as libertarian: few people (in this country) know the word now, let alone over a decade ago.
And your point is? Come to think of it, I wonder what your definition of centralising is. I have read your proposals for decentralisation of power and they were naive wank because you are determined to keep the power of tax-raising, and thus money distribution, with central government.
I’ll second Longrider: you’re a fucking idiot, and an authoritarian to boot.
DK
Your evidence to substantiate this is?
It’s no good sighing and saying that we’ve been here before; all I see is the same unsubstantiated nonsense along the lines of libertarian = Tory from you, Neil Harding, Bob Piper and now it seems, Sadie. It ain’t true. And, frankly, from what you have written, none of you demonstrate any understanding of the philosophy; although you all seem quick enough to misrepresent it.
Presumably you mean this:
You should read it more carefully. They don’t describe themselves as libertarians, they have been so described by others and have chosen not to object to the label. They actually describe themselves as more Conservative than Labour – which is something quite different. That is not substantive evidence that they are libertarians. Frankly, though, I don’t care what the owners of the site call themselves – without substantive evidence, we do not know, so it is unwise to make assumptions – that is what my penultimate paragraph was about. Not too difficult really.
If you think I have called you an idiot, then all I can suggest is, perhaps, the cap fits, eh? Frankly, anyone who still supports the Labour party after twelve years of maladministration should be seriously questioning themselves.
DK. You’re a thick overprivileged cunt of the highest order. £30k a year for an education that you’re the end product?
What a waste of money.
No wonder you’re a thick feudalist – if someone as stupid as you didn’t have a fantastically advantaged start in life, you’d be a fucking vagrant now.
And if everyone else had a fraction of the advantages that you’ve had in life, you’d struggle to keep up.
*That’s* why you’re a
feudalistlibertarian.Hmmm… you really don’t understand what a libertarian is, do you? Feudalism is something quite different.
For libertarians, the distinction is between those who take away freedom and those who increase, between statists and non-statists, between those who think the answer to every ill, real or perceived, is to take more money from the hard working and those who believe that many problems are the responsibility of the affected individuals to fix themselves.
That is why, were there to be a poll among libertarians as to which politicians they most despised, Ted Heath would be very high up on the list.
Christ, this Paulie guy has a problem.
He has some very odd ideas about democracy, too – he seems to think that those of us who have drifted into political nihilism are anti-democratic, without realising that it is the contempt for democracy by politicians that led to this disengagement. I notice in discussions with others that he is somewhat reverential towards politicians. These people deserve contempt, not reverence.
Having looked at both; at least the spoof site is actually sporadically funny. The ‘real’ one isn’t worth the candle.