In the wake of the McBride/Draper nonsense that caused me much jollity over the Easter weekend (can anyone be such a complete and utter prat as Draper? You couldn’t invent such a buffoon and expect him to be believable.), there is much discussion about the role of blogs and the anti-politics approach some take.
Well, firstly, there is nothing wrong with being anti-politics, when the people who do politics for a living behave so reprehensibly. Blogs are much like the pamphleteers of yesteryear. We are the ordinary folk expressing an opinion, having found a voice; an opinion that is inconvenient to the cosy little world of the professional politicians and the journos who rub up to them.
My attention was drawn by the Devil’s Kitchen and subsequently Charlotte Gore to Liberal Conspiracy (unfortunately). Now, there’s a name to conjure with. These people are not by any stretch of the imagination, liberals. They are social authoritarians. As I noted in one comment on Charlotte’s blog, a better, more catchy moniker would be “Socialist Conspiracy” – it would certainly be more accurate and honest.
Still, Sunny Hundal thinks we should be concentrating on other things – well, the left leaning blogs that is; I concentrate on whatever takes my fancy and will continue to do so. Fair enough, but it descended into the kind of farce that I expect with these things. It’s when Sunny defends disemvowelling perfectly reasonable comments and tries to justify this with the freedom of speech argument that the sheer hypocrisy shines through.
Look, there is nothing wrong with having an arbitrary and juvenile comments policy if that’s what you want – and LC’s is, well, arbitrary and juvenile. The suggestion that it is designed to foster reasoned debate is observably risible nonsense. I don’t have a problem with this – your place, your rules and I won’t bother going over to comment on what is usually so much arse dribble anyway (the cited article being a case in point). But don’t try to kid us that you are some kind of defender of free speech in the process, because the evidence tells the world that you are nothing of the sort. Not least, because the comments concerned were polite, eloquent and reasonable. They were not, by any stretch of the imagination, trolling. Besides:
I enjoy the sight of lefties bashing and smacking down right-wingers. That’s what LC is all about, in fact. If they come over to our space to engage in drive-by trolling, they’ll get abuse in return, while having their own contributions mangled. Life is harsh, man.
That is why I don’t bother with LC – This childish little outburst from Sunny sums up the level of maturity you can expect. Frankly, I don’t understand why Old Holbourn and DK waste their efforts, but that’s their choice.
I have a comments policy. I will, should I deem it necessary, delete abusive or trolling comments and I make this perfectly clear. My place, my rules. In the past five years, I’ve deleted three comments for this reason. I am not as easy going as DK because I regard such behaviour as vandalism. However, I do not claim that I am defending free speech in the process as I make it clear that commenting here is not a free speech right, you are a guest here and I expect you to behave accordingly. I do not, however, delete comments that merely disagree with me and I would never, ever, stoop to the infantile tactic of disemvowelling. Although in this instance it serves to expose Sunny’s behaviour for all to see, so maybe not such a bad thing after all.
And finally, back to the crux of the matter. Sunny, like other mainstream journos, tries to pass the buck for the deterioration in political behaviour onto blogs :
Blogs, you could say, will only accelerate this deterioration of civility in the political culture.
I don’t say this at all. Political discourse has been decidedly uncivil for as long as I can remember it. Politicians are entirely to blame for this abasement, no one else. Blogs are merely the medium through which we, the ordinary electors, may voice our displeasure and long may it continue. Although…
Otherwise the likes of Derek Draper and Guido Fawkes will end up dominating the conversations.
Actually, the more that Derek Draper is given air-time, the better. This contemptible little mountebank is the best advert for removing New Labour from power than anything anyone else could put together. Guido, on the other hand will simply turn his guns onto whoever is in power, and that is no bad thing either. Also, it is worth repeating here that Guido is not part of a party machine – despite various people over the weekend referring to him as a “Tory backed” blogger. And, contrary to Sunny’s assertions, he is not part of the problem, he is part of the solution. Shining a spotlight on this nest of vipers is the first step to eradication of the cancer they have visited upon the political process. As a consequence of Guido’s actions over this weekend, more people are aware of blogging and more people are aware of just how deeply nasty politicians and their spin doctors are. Politicians are the whole problem, not bloggers. Guido took a scalp this weekend. Here’s to many more.
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Update: Excellent comment from Steve Sharp – do nip along and read.
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Update: Just to clarify on the free speech matter as there does seem to be some confusion here. If you are an absolutist, then you take the DK position – including unmoderated blogs – that anything goes and be prepared to accept the consequences of what you say. If as I do, and Sunny does, you deem that moderation is appropriate in certain circumstances, then you are putting property rights above free speech. There is nothing wrong with this and it may be right and proper to moderate, in order to allow space for people to contribute who might not otherwise do so – but, make no mistake; it ain’t free speech.
However, I do not claim that I am defending free speech in the process as I make it clear that commenting here is not a free speech right, you are a guest here and I expect you to behave accordingly. I do not, however, delete comments that merely disagree with me and I would never, ever, stoop to the infantile tactic of disemvowelling.
Huh? That’s exactly my view. I don’t delete comments that simply disagree with my view either – and that article is prime example of that. So you’ve got beef with disemvoweling. Big deal.
and my point about free speech was more general, not about allowing people to trash the blog with drive-by commenting.
If you’re going to cuss me, at least say something substantial. ‘Socialist conspiracy’ – yes, well, heard it all before. It’s a brand name, get over it.
This childish little outburst from Sunny sums up the level of maturity you can expect.
Wait – and then you go on to compare me with DK? Sounds like you’ll take immaturity when it chimes with your worldview. I didn’t realise a blogger who writes about sexual fantasies involving Polly toynbee was somehow mature behaviour.
But they weren’t drive-by trolling, which was my point – if you think they were, then you don’t understand what a troll is. Both comments that were disemvowelled were perfectly reasonable – they merely disagreed with you or your fellow travellers. So, you are not being exactly honest, are you?
I haven’t cussed you, have I? I accused you of childish behaviour, which is nothing more than an accurate observation of fact. And, there’s nothing to “get over”. Brand name; yes. Accurate description; no. Simple observation of fact. If you were selling a product, I might be inclined to have a word with the trades descriptions people, but you aren’t, so I merely make the observation that the name is disingenuous.
Yes, I have a beef with disemvowelling. It is deeply, deeply childish. If you want to be taken seriously, then what better way to undermine it than using playground tactics, eh?
Well, actually, I wasn’t comparing you with DK. In fact, I wasn’t comparing you with anyone. That said, seeing as you mention it; I often agree with DK’s general points about Polly, for instance, while not particularly liking the manner in which he does it. Still, as I wasn’t commenting about DK you cannot make assumptions beyond that we have a general agreement on policy – and even then, you would be wrong on occasions. Whatever; your comment was, indeed, childish. Sorry.
Sunny is an even bigger laugh as a blogger than Draper. He sets up a blog called ‘Liberal Conspiracy’ which – as you rightly remark – most certainly isn’t Liberal and not much of a Conspiracy [unless you can call a gaggle of disgruntled ex-Blairites that]. Then, when someone with far more liberal activist form than Sunny will ever have disagrees with him over something, he tells that person [me] that he doesn’t “care a rat’s arse” what I think.
End of my interest in that particular forum. And needless to say, repeated requests through a mutual acquaintance for an apology, public or private, have gone unheeded. Maybe Gordon Brown has taken a leaf from Sunny’s book [or vice versa]?
I heard the expression “pathologically incapable” used today to describe Brown. Perhaps the same applies here. Still, don’t hold your breath 😉
For me, Sunny’s race politics is something I find deeply repugnant. So, generally, I don’t bother with what he has to say – it’s just on this occasion the humbug was such that comment was needed, I felt.
Yes, Sunny’s politics are puerile. As for his personality, I don’t make ad hominem attacks on blogs so won’t comment.
I hear what you haven’t said 😉
I always consider “comment moderation breaks free speech” arguments to be a bit redundant online – you want to make a statement online? Ok then, start your own blog and say it there. You don’t need to use another person’s site to have your say.
The idea that deleting a comment on a blog somehow erodes the right to free expression inherent in that human being is a bit of an exaggeration in my eyes.
The thing is, it is fundamentally called “moderation” – that’s because you remove the extreme comments and leave the sane ones behind. If one’s idea of “extreme comments” are ones which disagree with one’s personal view then that must make one a bore at parties. It’s ok to do it on your site because, you know, you’re a guest and whatever and if we’re honest with ourselves it’s an online debate with all that entails (so… yeah) but it’s a bit limiting on a personal level.
I’ve deleted a single comment on my blog – I did a review of a program called Snapter and how it would be useful for students and I got a comment saying they didn’t want to buy it but would I give them my copy which I considered to be worthy of deletion. That’s my personal limit.