The Question.
These days, every educationalist from Michael Gove down is a fan of the dreaded blazer/tie combo. Exactly how do they really think they’re helping prepare kids for the ‘real world’?
That’s just the sub-heading, the article is the usual drivel about “we don’t wanna wear skool uniform”.
The answer to the question, of course, is startlingly simple. Out here in the real work environment (and, no, the offices of the Guardian doesn’t count), a degree of conformity to certain standards of dress and behaviour is expected. Those who choose not to conform will find it difficult to source work, whether salaried employment or self-employed.
I am a life-long non-conformist, yet I always, without fail, wear a suit and tie when attending the clients’ premises and meetings on their behalf (not the bike training, of course). Yeah, sure, I wear a pair of western slouch boots with it, but the principle stands; I conform. It is expected out here in the real world. That is why Michael Gove is right to support it – as do parents. I hope he also supports the teaching of basic English, mathematics, the sciences, history and geography while he is at it…
As for Suzanne Moore, well, lost cause, I suspect.
Spot on! It’s just good manners. But that’s not to be expected from the ‘we want to express ourselves!’ eternal adolescents at the ‘Guardian’…
Wearing inappropriate clothes is a pathetic way to pretend to be a rebel. Real non conformists do not conform in their thoughts and ideas
We sometimes do it with appearance. However I am usually fairly subtle – slightly Gothic styling, for example or those western boots. Nothing that jars or is incongruous, just a slightly different look while conforming to the expectations of a professional business.
Perhaps there is a relationship between the fact that The Guardian is staffed with scruffy sods and the fact that the paper is losing vast amounts of money.
Discuss…
Well I’ve never worn a suit for anything other than weddings and it hasn’t impeded my progress through life. But then again I suppose my journey through life isn’t one which could be called conformist in any shape or form.
With that said my accountant is as laid back as me but he discovered that whilst prospective clients were happy that he would meet then outside of ‘normal working hours’ if he met them without a shirt and tie they tended not to become clients.
Personally I find it rather sad that a lot people seem to base their assessment of another human beings abilities, at least in the first instance, on a uniform. Especially when so many in uniform in Westminster, banking, giant corporations, fake charities etc, continually prove such trust is misplaced.
It isn’t about judging abilities, it’s about fitting in with the environment. Like it or loathe it, the workplace will have rules of some sort and frequently will have a dress code. If you are able to work in an environment that doesn’t, then great. However, most of us do, so we have to adapt. School uniforms are a reasonable means of preparing children for that.
And there we must agree to differ. It is all about judging abilities to my mind to you it’s all about ‘fitting in’. What is interesting is even the chavs hereabouts have a dress code so perhaps your concept of fitting in being important to people is correct and I am wrong.
Que sera
Whether we like it or not, we do judge on appearances. Given that, it makes sense to play the game somewhat. It doesn’t mean that you cannot be individual or different and there is some satisfaction to be gained doing just that and remaining within the accepted norms or rules.
And, frankly, I don’t have a problem with schools or employers having dress codes or uniforms. Their gaff, their rules.
I think it’s also about making an effort. A smart appearance in certain environments says a lot more about you than juat ability.
I can’t count the number of times i’ve heard on the doors, “But these trainers cost me hundred quid”. The cost of a pair of shoes matters not when your appearance says scruffy, troublemaking chav who has no business entering polite society.
I agree. And I am showing courtesy and respect to my client by dressing well.
In my case a really well-cut tweed jacket, and properly fitting shirt with a silk cravat, neat trousis’, and handmade-to-measure shoes …..
Weird how that will pass me everywhere from the Houses of Parliament to the most basic workshop, or even trackside (though in the latter case I would be wearing a “Hi-Vis” over the top & assuming I’m on a safe walking route)
Note the acceptable but nonconformist touch – cravat.
Quite. It’s about playing the game.
Does not the logic of a self-proclaimed libertarian wearing comedy clothing while pretending to conform to the ‘norms’ of whatever they imagine is expected in the workplace while complaining about others who don’t want to conform not seem truly bizarre?
School uniform is an anachronism, long since abandoned in many successful countries outside the UK. In reality a lot of people, children and adults, feel the need to conform to the norms of whatever society they live or to the group they (currently) align themselves with, so whether there is a ‘uniform’ or not, people will tend to dress (and behave) in the same ways anyway.
The requirement for a particular dress code for school children is ridiculous. If the little consumers really want to dress like their favourite pop star (or whatever) what is the point of stopping them? Peer group pressure will mean they will either conform or learn ways of coping with attention.
No. I wear a suit and tie – these are not comedy clothing, they are smart attire and I wear them well. Nor am I imagining anything. It is my choice and I do so even if my client is dressing down.
I am a realist. I realise that the world is at it is and we have to survive. If that means a degree of conformity, so be it. There is a time and a place for rebellion. I see no mileage in pissing off clients and employers for no good reason by turning up looking like a scruff.
School uniforms are a good idea – partly for the reasons given regarding being a leveller – even if this is only partially successful – but also to prepare children for what they will face outside school as well as minimising the distractions from the learning environment. Being a classical liberal does not mean that I am an anarchist. I am not. I accept that there will be rules and conventions that we have to deal with. Some battles are worth fighting, some are not. This one is the latter.
“Exactly how do they really think they’re helping prepare kids for the ‘real world’?
By teaching them a basic fact that when grownups want something from other grownups…pretty much regardless of what that is and from whom…they have to give a little to get a little.
Even if for only as long as it takes to get what they want.
Indeed.
To my mind the biggest advantage of school uniform is that it acts as a leveller. When you have a teen culture that demands grossly overpriced trainers and designer label clothing, which a lot of families simply cannot afford, school uniform avoids the playground hierarchy that inevitably ensues in an unregulated dress regime.
As for suits and ties, I own a suit, but only wear it on very rare occasions, weddings and funerals mainly. Never having lived in the mainstream world, I’ve never felt the need to conform to any dress codes.
Whilst at senior school, yes I am that old, there was a strict uniform code but this didn’t stop better off or more ‘socially conscious’ parents from buying the best quality blazers, shirts and trousers.
The junior school had no uniform in those days and this lack of conformity had no impact on the education of me or my peers.
Indeed, when I was at school in the early / mid 60s there would not have been a problem, although in those days a uniform was the norm anyway. I’m talking about more recent years, the last couple of decades. With both my daughters, it was de rigueur to have Reebock or Adidas or similar labels on ones shoes and clothes. Any unknown brand was considered definitely infra dig. And those ‘designer’ labels at least doubled the price of the item, regardless of quality.
Better quality blazers etc when I was at school were not taken much notice of by the pupils. Same colour, same badge, we all wore them under sufferance, it was never an issue whether the cut of the cloth was a bit better (or not, as the case may be).
Adidas trainers were all the rage when I was at senior school as well. Crap they were as they only lasted a season just like those cheap n cheerful market trainers.
You do make a good point about the quality of the uniforms these days they are all crap. Unlike my day (late sixties to mid seventies) where you had to buy the badge from the sole supplier in the town and stitch it on yourself, assuming you were a mother of course, but you could stitch it onto any blazer you liked as long as it was black.
Same spot was the sole supplier of school ties which they sold in two different qualities. Odd how such things stick after so long and most of what was considered important by teachers has simply vanished.
I’ve worked in both environments and in some cases have had to wear a uniform. For the most part, I’ve been relaxed about it. The only time I really hated it was Sainsbury’s – but that was more than the uniform at work there.
Your argument is entirely well reasoned.. but, to me, is too accepting of the world as it is. Old-style school/business dress should be banished from our lives as quickly as possible. It is, as suggested above, anachronistic.. it’s also (moreso in the workplace than in schools) profoundly sexist (a rare genuine, albeit trivial, example of where we Menz really do get the shit deal).
I’ve no beef with the idea of a school uniform per se, but can it please *not* involve ties and blazers? They are unecessary in school and they are unecessary (and increasingly not required) in workplaces. I, like every other good little employee, will stick on a suit’n’tie when venturing out to meet clients (who, invariably, will not be comparably attired) but I long for the day when that’s no longer necessary. I’m quite capable of looking smart without one.. and I know a whole bunch of people who are quite incapable of looking smart with one.
Recently I interviewed a number of people for a role. 2 of 4 didn’t turn up fully suited. This surprised me, and did give me concerns about just how our schools and universities are preparing people for the world of getting a job.. but I think that if you’re going to draw conclusions about people based on what they are wearing, then the more scope they have to get it right/wrong, the more you learn. If everyone dresses the same then we don’t know which ones are making an effort/statement, and which ones are ticking a box.
Most of the school uniforms I see hereabouts involve sweatshirts or polo shirts and slacks. I can’t recall the last time I saw a school uniform involving blazers and ties. Probably something that is more seen in the private sector, I presume.
As for changing the world – yes, I accept it as it is. It ain’t changing any time soon, so it is best to fit in as best we can and keep our rebellion to those things that really matter and indulge our individuality in small ways.
“I can’t recall the last time I saw a school uniform involving blazers and ties. Probably something that is more seen in the private sector, I presume.
Well it’s not so here in Chavsville, Oop Norf where my children attend single sex, local authority-run, schools…
Both boys and girls had to wear a blazer over their school jumpers and a shirt with a proper knotted tie…none of yer clip-on rubbish…until last year.
This year…after switching to Academy status… the girls school don’t need to wear blazers OR ties and instead have open necked revered collar blouses which…when my children are stood side by side….just looks plain scruffy to me.
Ultimately the thing with uniform is it’s all about presentation and representation. It’s not about what or who YOU really are but what the school would like other people to think you are.
You are representing the school…not yourself…so there has to be a “standard” of dress presented by every pupil. Preferably a high one in order to give a good impression.
Out here in the real work environment (and, no, the offices of the Guardian doesn’t count), a degree of conformity to certain standards of dress and behaviour is expected.
Though I agree with you, LR, just how libertarian are we being?
It’s not a libertarian issue.
But this rests on the assumption that people who did not wear school uniform as children will be significantly less able or willing to adjust to the wearing of particular kinds of clothing in the workplace, than people who did wear school uniform. Do you have any evidence that this is indeed the case?
It’s not exactly rocket science to understand that you’ll need to wear particular kinds of clothing in particular lines of work. Most pupils will have picked this up way before they start work, just by observing the world around them.
And even if they didn’t pick that up naturally, how much preparation would they really need? Surely you could expect a reasonable person to only need telling “you’ll be expected to wear a suit to work, so wear one” once? Surely they don’t need 13 years of school uniform to grasp that basic concept?
I have never worn a school uniform in my life, but I still managed to turn up to my first day at work as smartly dressed as everyone else, and transitioned into a regular routine of suit and tie wearing with no problems whatsoever. Ditto the 1,200 other non-uniformed kids at my school – not one of them has ever complained of being unable to fit into work-based dress codes.
I really don’t think it’s that big a deal.
It doesn’t rely on any assumptions at all. It is an observation.
Tell that to Suzanne Moore.