Another in my occasional series. This gentleman isn’t especially bright and dismantling his argument was a simple affair. Indeed, I almost felt a bit sorry about it. However, it does illustrate some fairly typical rhetorical tactics used by people to promote a false narrative as they conflate their opinion with objective fact, so worth discussing.
Before we get into the meat of it, this is a discussion prompted by a Facebook post by Royal Enfield to promote their new 350 Classic. While I recently bought an Enfield, having become convinced that the new generation of this marque was worth a punt, I’d have made the same comments regardless of the manufacturer concerned, because the man was stating blatant falsehoods. I got into a similar discussion a couple of years ago when I commented – like the individual here – about the quality of the modern Yamahas. I stand by those comments as my Tracer did suffer from a poor finish – the paintwork had orange peel, for example and after the first winter, rust was showing on the fasteners, which compared to my BMW over the same period was disappointing. I note, however, that Yamaha have upped their game since then. The new Tracer’s fit and finish is of much higher quality, so that’s a good thing.
One more thing here, although this man is clearly not the sharpest, the poor literacy in his comments is more likely due to his use of a mobile phone screen. A colleague of mine produces similar gibberish because he is fumble fingered and doesn’t proofread. I suspect that is what is going on here.
When I see comments like this, I am reminded of that scene in Father Ted, where he is coaching Father Dougal on what is reality and what is in his head. What Mr Clough is presenting here is an opinion, not objective fact and this is a common theme in discussions such as this.
My response was brief and gave him an opportunity to walk away from the statement. Due to the way that Farcebook threads discussions, it does appear as if I’m responding to someone else, even though the thread shows it in context.
All too often, people don’t like a product and feel the need to justify it somehow, but why not just say that ‘it’s not to my taste‘ and leave it at that? I’m not a fan of Harley Davidson, but that’s all it is. I don’t like cruisers. My opinion, nothing more and yours may differ. I make no subjective comment on the product whatsoever. Anyway, we got a fairly standard hard-of-thinking reply.
The good old anecdote. As if this is somehow a gotcha. Without context a single anecdote is meaningless. He is also comparing an old Redditch model with the modern bikes, yet at the same time using one of the older Indian built Enfields as an example. As for stating facts, well, whatever facts may be in there, they aren’t relevant to the original claim. So I responded, politely with my observations.
If you are interested in the video, it is here. So we have video footage of a modern Enfield that has been through a winter, along with a description of the regime for cleaning and prepping. I’ve seen enough of these bikes since their launch to note that Fillingham’s machine is not unique. I’ve not seen a rusty one yet. Also, this example appears in later videos since this one and it still looks immaculate.
I got a response.
There you go. A killer response followed by whataboutery. I suspect that this individual is something of a pub bore who bullies people into silence with such retorts should he be challenged. The problem with taking such behaviour to the wider world is that you come across people who may be better informed and might just not be prepared to be bullied into silence. Likely as not, those around him either share his prejudices or simply let him pontificate without challenge for the sake of a quiet life.
As for the alloy wheels, so what? Most modern bikes come with alloy wheels. How is this relevant?
You would expect this to be the end of it. He presented a statement of opinion, was challenged and failed to have an adequate argument to deal with the challenge so simply resorted to trying to shut me down. This didn’t work. What we then got was a classic piece of deflection. This again is fairly common when someone hasn’t got an argument. They try to change the parameters of the discussion itself.
What is it that I’m supposed to have not listened to? I have responded to all of his comments with reason, logic and evidence. He has nothing left in his armoury – hence the petulant ‘end off [sic].‘ I am clearly being told so shut up and stop contradicting him because he doesn’t like it. Again, I am reminded of the bully as this is typical bullying behaviour. If I felt a little sorry earlier on because he isn’t very bright, then this feeling evaporated. He just isn’t very pleasant at all. I’m pretty sure that this tactic has been effective for him previously or he wouldn’t have used it. My response to bullying is to stand up to them.
It has since gone silent, so maybe he has given up now.
Why do I do this? Well, okay, there is an element of sport here and it’s useful to hone one’s skills even if I am engaging in a battle of wits with an unarmed man. Sometimes, I reflect when I get into these spats. I am driven by logic, reason and evidence, having been cursed with an analytical mind and was once accused of being a robot by someone who allowed emotion to take over. She may be right.
I was never going to convince Mr Clough to abandon his prejudices, so wasn’t trying. These comments are for the casual reader who might be looking for some information, so the narrative that they are rustbuckets is challenged – along with some evidence from an owner of several Enfields, including one of the older 500 Bullet models, which is as immaculate as the featured Interceptor. Again, putting to bed the myth that they are rustbuckets.
I’d like to think that Mr Clough has been given some pause for thought, but suspect that he lacks the wit and self awareness to do so.
I look upon social media as an adjuvant – it makes good things better and bad things worse. Unfortunately it’s the bad things that promote the emotions more easily.
Indeed. On the plus side, it enabled me to make contact with someone I’d lost touch with a long time ago.
Still trying to teach pigs to sing, Mark? š
Yup. Not getting anywhere, though.
I have regular spats over climate change. I love it when we get to the ābut what we are seeing today is unprecedented so it must be due to humansā stage. Usually one more post from me illustrating why the present is far from unprecedented ends the debate.
Yup, apparently the hurricanes are evidence of climate change because they are getting worse. Nope. They ain’t.
They are according to the BBC. Paul Homewood is openly calling them liars, you would think that they would be demanding that he took his post down or threatening to sue him or something. I wonder what is stopping them?
I think (meaning in my opinion), one thing was overlooked by both parties in this argument. That is the fact that chrome does not rust. That sounds pedantic I know, but hear me out.
Its notoriously difficult to prevent rust from appearing on chrome because of the nature of the two metals involved. If chrome is on ferrous steel and the chroming process hasn’t been carried out precisely, for example if there are any microscopic rust spots on the steel during chroming or any oxygen molecules trapped between the steel and chrome layer, the steel will continue to rust underneath the chrome. Eventually, the rust will build up and lift the chrome off before breaking through. Once that happens you have a ‘pin prick’ hole (called pitting) in the chrome which will lead to more moisture/oxygen ingress and more rusting.
So I disagree with both of you. A bike of any brand can be a rust bucket regardless of its age. This is no reflection on the bike manufacturer either, since I very much doubt that there is a brand on the planet that does its own chrome plating. This is a farmed out process done by a third party and is a bit of a lottery to get right.
Another factor with Royal Enfield is their journey from India, though I suppose the same would apply to Japanese or Chinese bikes. They are usually transported by container ships and are not well protected from sea air which contains salts.
I note from your mention of the American brand that you spelled ‘tractor’ wrong.
Actually, I simply didn’t go into depth on chrome over ferric metals. If I had, the conversion would have become over long and tedious. I did imply that any bike will deteriorate if you don’t clean it and treat it for winter. So, no, Enfields aren’t rustbuckets if you treat them with the relevant care. As I said in the discussion.
Being anectdotal (and also enjoying the bike side of this article), I’m reminded of a mate who had a Fat Boy. He was so paranoid about corrosion that he kept it in his garage, inside one of those inflatable bubbles with a built in fan at one end, and an open flap at the other. Despite this, condensation still appeared on the chrome engine cases. Shortly after I had the Adventurer which, due to work at the time, spent large amounts of time in storage. I opted for one of those huge plastic bags that you wheel the bike into, then take out all the air with a vacuum cleaner before zip tying the open end. Not a trace of condensation or corrosion over 3 years off road, though there was a lot of prep such as battery removal, fuel drainage and lifting off the ground to prevent flat spots on the tyres.
When we started to see evidence of the results of the vacuum bag, my mate started to close the flap on his bubble and run the fan in reverse.
My garage is terrible for condensation. I use the same approach as Stuart Fillingham in the linked video. During the winter, I rinse the bikes down after every ride. At the first opportunity a full clean and anti rust treatment.
I’ve been suffering condensation in my workshop (which is a wooden construction). This year I took steps to prevent it and it seems to be working, so I may have a tip or two for you here. The problem is even worse in a concrete building, especially if heated by a gas powered space heater (ask me how I know).
I spent some time observing how it happens on my own workshop and was able to conclude that the condensation occurred in the early morning, around sunrise, especially when the weather change from cold to warm. This is because the sun is on the roof all day and heats up the workshop so the temperature and humidity would peak pretty quickly. The roof is flat and the warm air was rising and escaping through the tiny gaps where the roof meets the high end of the walls, leaving condensation on the ceiling on its way out. This became evident by black mould developing on the ceiling in that area and slight water damage to my workshop radio where the condensation had dripped.
My answer has been crossflow ventilation. The workshop is 16 feet long at the roof’s highest edge, so I have installed 4 long but narrow vents in a row at the highest point I could. This is right underneath the roof overhang. A single, large vent has been installed on the opposite wall but very low to the floor. This allows the warm air to escape as it rises, drawing in cool air through the large vent. So far there has been no sign of any condensation.
I hope this helps, though I know there’s no real substitute for cleaning a bike, but it may allow you to do it a little less intensively.
Anti rust treatment – I can highly recommend a metal polish called White Diamond. Its the stuff that the American truckers use on those massive polished alloy fuel tanks. Its a sealant as well, and leaves behind a protective film. I used it on my polished aluminium engine cases and it would last about a year between treatments and is for any metal finish including chrome.
Paint work – after washing and drying, apply a treatment of ceramic coating. This is a spray on/buff polish but is different to wax because it is hydrophobic so water will not even bead on it. Same as with the polish, a treatment will last for about a year.
I rarely get involved with arguments on the internet, but now and again, something I actually know about, canāt resist.
Iām not saying I end up winning, but love seeing the the squirming and others that agree with me.
In my early years, I joined a biker club haha. Long ago boyfriend, he had a Bonnie, he bought me a Tiger Cub, still got the pic, trying to start it up, I broke my ankle. He also bought me a bike with a sidecar, why I havenāt a clue.
Sidecars, eh? Doing the impossible with the unrideable.
Back in the early 70’s one of my biker mates was launched over the handlebars whilst kicking up his Tiger Cub. He was only 4ft and a dog end high, and a 5 stone weakling so had a lot of fun poked at him from the rest of us which he always took in his stride. So you can imagine how we all fell about the place when that happened.
He was a great guy but always the butt of pranks. At one point he had a Honda CB175, which a couple of us would sometimes pick up and carry around to the back of the pub (steering locked), so when he came out he’d think that his bike had been stolen. Another prank was to switch his HT leads around or draw a line down one of the spark plugs with a pencil, then watch him furiously kicking the bike over trying to start it.
I’ve only ever ridden a sidecar outfit once and that was more than enough. I shat myself. No matter what I did, it just wanted to pull to the other side of the road. It took massive effort to keep it in a straight line. Never again.
I suspect that the sidecar wasn’t set up correctly. I believe that the sidecar wheel is supposed to be toed in to counter the lop sided nature of the outfit. The sidecar outfit is a pretty bizarre concept when you think about it. My uncle John used to have an enormous one in which he transported his wife and three small kids. Having only a bike licence, he later moved on to a Reliant.
You’re probably spot on Stony, the sidecar was a 2 seater Busmar (probably the same as your uncle’s) pulled by a 350 Jawa in not too good nick. I had the unfortunate task of riding the thing back from Birmingham as a favour for a friend. On the back of the seat was a sticker which said “Please don’t hoot, I’m pedaling as fast as I can”. The speedo topped out at 120mph, someone had removed the glass and written “-> Old Czech Joke” in white paint pen on the dial. The seat was like sitting on a concrete block and when I arrived back after a mere 50 mile trip, I got off the thing still in the seated position and walked like I’d shit myself – which I had almost done on the way back.
Pretty much the same story as your uncle, I had a motorcycle licence and when the kids came along in the late 70s I bought an old Reliant in addition to the bike. Didn’t bother doing my car test until 2005. The 3 wheeler did everything I needed at about 67 mpg. The old Regal would do around the ton on a motorway (couldn’t really tell – the needle on the 80mph speedo would go off the scale and hide itself) and obliterated the original 850 minis in a race. The Robin that followed, despite its extra 150cc was much slower.
My one and only attempt at piloting a sidecar outfit ended up with me and said outfit in a hedge. It’s a three wheel vehicle with no differential so when you go left, the sidecar wheel wants to lift and when you go right the rear wheel of the bike wants to lift. When you go straight, the sidecar will be pulling towards the camber of the road.
Toe in and lean out is what’s needed, so when you pull away, the forces pull the chair back into a straight line. That’s the theory anyway.
Thank you for “a battle of wits with an unarmed man”. I’ll hang it up for later use!
Feel free, it’s not an original.
This one is good as well.
how could anyone be this dense and not turn into a black hole?
A few thoughts on the durability of finish on various bikes. If someone had brought over an Enfield from India himself it is possible that the finish for the home market differed from the finish on the export models.
The worst chrome that I encountered was on the wheel rims of a 1970s Benelli, I would regularly Solvol the rust off and then wax them. The paint was fairly durable and the chrome on the exhausts didn’t rust although one of the silencers turned a light gold colour.
The Enfield being a budget brand brought to mind the MZ which also had a reasonable finish providing you looked after it. MZs had always come with aluminium alloy rims as standard and they were easy to keep looking nice. The chrome on the springs over the rear shocks failed but it was an old bike when I got it. I stripped them and painted the springs black.
The idiot asked why the wheel rims on the Enfield didn’t have any chrome on them. Because they are aluminium alloy and don’t need it?
Yes, possibly there are differences for the home market. However this bloke was such a massive dick. Even when presented with evidence that contradicted his assertions he doubled down.
“The idiot asked why the wheel rims on the Enfield didnāt have any chrome on them. Because they are aluminium alloy and donāt need it?”
Chrome will just not take to aluminium very well, it will flake off without any external help, engine cases are a good example, though that may be caused by engine warm/cool cycles (constant expansion/contraction). The worst thing about conventional chrome wheels is the spokes, even if the spokes are made from 304 stainless there’s still an electroplating effect when moisture is involved – this is how a battery works – two dissimilar metals with an electrolyte in between. One of the metals will corrode and it ain’t gonna be the 304.
Enter Honda’s ‘Comstar’ wheels during the late 70’s. Pressed, naked aluminium spokes which did away with the spoke corrosion problem (example CB250/400N). This evolved into the cast wheels we see today, but they are not aluminium, they are magnesium which is flammable.
With spokes, I use luster pad. It’s time consuming but if you want to keep it in good condition then necessary.
BMW chrome plate their alloy rocker covers as an option. I can’t see the point. The less chrome the better, frankly. Indeed, apart from fork stanchions and the handlebars on the Z900RS, my bikes are chrome free, which is the way I like it.
Sorry to be OT but I thought that you might find this interesting. I haven’t watched the videos yet so I can’t comment further.
https://forum.diabetes.org.uk/boards/threads/in-new-documentary-top-uk-cardiologist-calls-for-halt-to-vaccines.102449/