It’s interesting to see the reactions to the Pope’s comments yesterday. The comments in question being those about aggressive secularism and the UK’s stance against the Nazis during WWII. I listened to those comments and didn’t interpret them in the same way as the Guardian readers nor, for that matter, the Nameless Libertarian. I did not pick up a desire to link atheists with Nazis.
He was incorrect in his assertion that the Nazis wished to eradicate God, because their ideology was not specifically atheist. And arguments from the Guardianista about the minutiae of Hitler’s beliefs doesn’t alter this. The Nazis themselves were not on some crusade of godlessness, they were seeking control and domination. Some of them – possibly Hitler himself – may have not believed in god, but that does not mean that the evil they perpetrated had anything to do with religious belief or the lack thereof. So, Benedict was factually inaccurate, which I find mildly surprising. But, that inaccuracy does not equate to the simplistic Nazis=atheists or even Nazis=aggressive secularism. I found nothing in his remarks to lead to this conclusion.
While I am no Catholic, being an unbeliever, I do have some sympathy with the aggressive secularism argument. The state should be secular. It should make no laws regarding the observation of religion. Equally, I find the state imposing restrictions on the mutually agreed collective activities of religious groups (schools, adoption agencies et al) inherently unethical as they impinge on freedom of association. Religion should be a private matter and people should be free to practice without fear or favour.
I can’t help wondering just what twentieth century atheist extremism he is on about though. Some use the Soviet Union as an example – but that is to engage in logical fallacy. Sure the Soviets were atheist, but that does not mean that what they did was because of their atheism, it was because they were evil nasty bastards. It was because they unleashed the evil that lies dormant in humanity. Their lack of belief in a deity is neither here nor there. The Church believes in a diety – at least, I hope it does – and in its time has engaged in some pretty evil behaviour. The Islamists believe in a deity and they are happy enough to bomb people. All this tells us is that people will behave like people. Believing in a higher power or not is not itself a causation. To try to make such a link is to engage in hoc ergo propter hoc.
And, finally, trotting out his German past – membership of the Hitler youth – and the Vatican’s failure to stand up to the Nazis really doesn’t help and, frankly, are cheap shots. Listen to what the man has to say and engage with that. There’s plenty there to be getting on with…
LR ,thanks for that free thinking stance on Popes and
secular aspirations but I have a slight problem with
those who have no beliefs,they seem to be engrossed with
vilifying those who do.It appears the new age chatterers
ie desk bound and digital ,have plenty of dreams,plenty of
advice yet sadly lacking in any consequence or reality.
I’lle stick with believing,its more fun
Some do. The majority come out as being agnostic these days when it comes to religion in the UK. Most of us who don’t believe don’t have a problem with those who do. The voices you hear tend to be a vocal minority.
That’s a bit rich coming from Ratzy. He WAS a Nazi, still is AFAIAA* and the RC church did not exactly cover itself in glory during Nazi era.
* He was quite famous in Germany when I lived there, and he always spouted the most authoritarian right wing clap trap you can imagine.
Right wing claptrap does not a Nazi make, though. A lot of young German people were in the Hitler youth at the time, so that one’s a non-starter.
Authoritarian – check. What do we expect? He is the head of an extremely authoritarian religious sect.
Conservative – check. The Catholic church is the epitome of conservatism.
Anti-homosexuality – check. What do we expect? That’s what his church preaches. Nothing new here.
Anti-contraception and abortion – check. What do we expect? And so on.
None of these things makes him a Nazi, though.
No sorry, there is a definite meme ( good Dawkinsite word ) here that atheists are immoral and godlessness leads inevitably to tyranny and murder, richly ironic given the history of the RCC. take a look at what the Catholic League says:http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1978.
I for one have no time for the Catholic church or any religion and I’m damned if I’m going to be browbeaten in to shutting up by the half wits who think any criticism of religion is intolerant or worst of all “disrespectful “.
I’m not suggesting that people shut up or give the Church an easy ride. What I am saying is; don’t get bogged down in logical fallacies. Of course the Church will claim that atheists lack morality. That’s their job. It’s unmitigated cack.
However, the speech yesterday did not say what people are claiming it said. To try to say that it was a crude atheism=Nazism analogy is to fall into a trap. Best not to fall into it.
Thornavis,
go right ahead and continue to attack the Church, but please try to find something original to say, because all I hear is a bunch of parrots squawking the same thing.