NickM writing at Counting Cats, draws my attention to a fairly obvious predictable knee-jerk response to the recent rioting. Yup, that’s right, National Service. And don’t think that iDave hasn’t thought about it given his penchant for state enforced slavery for young people.
My father is of that last generation of national servicemen who endured two years of their lives stolen by the state (more for those who perished in conflict). He narrowly avoided being sent to Suez, so spent much of that two years bodging about in Libya and Germany listening to radio transmissions – being in the Royal Signals. If you talk to him about it he will mostly tell of a time he rather enjoyed. This is not an unusual response and it is why that generation will often say that it is a good thing. However, they come from a time when conscription was a normal thing. Their parents had been called up to fight Hitler and the previous one had been called up to throw their lives away en masse on the fields of Flanders and Gallipoli. I wonder sometimes what would have happened if Europe’s youth in 1914 had all said “no”. Impossible, of course, such was the structure of society and the subservience towards the authorities that existed at the time, but it makes a nice thought that if the governments of the day had not had millions of young men to throw at each other, what would they have done? Picked up rifles and gone to war themselves?
However, I digress. Conscription assumes that the state owns us, our lives and our bodies. It is morally repugnant. This is quite apart from burdening a modern military with regular intakes of reluctant conscripts who need training and looking after. A distraction from the day job, frankly. And, given that we are involved in an entirely unnecessary conflict, what right does the state have to send anyone to be killed who is not a volunteer?
One of the arguments for national service is that it will give people a sense of right and wrong. Wrong. It teaches them how to kill the enemy. That is what soldiers do. So now they know how to kill more effectively. Well done. It is not the job of the military to teach young people morality or discipline, nor right from wrong. This is a parental responsibility.
Leslie Thomas comments on how today’s youth would react to the call-up.
“Try imposing National Service on some today and you’d find them AWOL [absent without leave] or trying to sue.”
I wouldn’t blame them. When faced with behaviour that is morally repugnant, refusal to cooperate is precisely the right approach. Fortunately, this story is just typical Daily Express bluster. However, that doesn’t mean that iDave’s Citizen Service idea won’t shift from the voluntary to the compulsory.
Thanks for picking this up. I agree entirely with your comments. And yes, iDave will enforce childhood (state ownership) further. No it won’t be military. It will be his “big society”. And he calls himself a “conservative”?
One thing that those who haven’t served don’t understand is that discipline in the armed forces is 99% self discipline. If someone serving really doesn’t want to do something they won’t. They might spend some time in pokey and eventually be thrown out, but they won’t do something they don’t want to. As a last resort dishonourable discharge is invoked.
So what will be done with conscripts who don’t want to do something? Throw them out and we are back where we started, except that moral and the professionalism of the armed forces will be severely undermined.
Conscription is disgusting. Cameron is disgusting. So we’ll probably get it.
Simon, you are correct, of course. As a Naval Reservist, I agreed to the discipline. As a conscript, I would have simply refused to cooperate. They can only do so much with a non-cooperative individual. Eventually, they have no option but to throw them out. Waste of time and effort. Quite apart from the moral argument that we do not belong to the state.
My Father, sadly deceased, was conscripted and did serve in the Suez. I remember him recalling stories of that time with fondness, too. He was in the Royal Engineers so he didn’t see any action but he was wounded by a scorpion and spent two weeks pole-axed.
Regards NS for today’s youth , I agree entirely with you, plus it would make all these ‘uman rites’ lawyers salivate. SimonF is right, 99% of discipline is self discipline and these days respect for authority seems to be lacking, unlike the 50’s/60’s.
Any form of ‘national service’ would cost too much to administer to be a starter.
It is just bullshit and bluster that will last until the next crisis to catch the dull media-trolls attentions.
I’d like to think you were right, however the citizen service project is already under-way.
My father was one of the last to do National Service, and he considered it a waste of two years of his life. Contrary to what most would imagine, he came out very unfit, much less fit than he started.
He was lucky. He was asked to choose Christmas Island or Osnabruck, chose the former and got sent to the latter (typical army). If he’d got his wish, he’d probably have died of radiation-induced illness by now – and the British government still denies the claims of atomic bomb test veterans.
You can guarantee that the army doesn’t want it back, and yes indeed it’s a form of slavery.
Agreed. I can say with some pride that my two sons who live in Germany managed to wangle their way out of doing National Service (where you have a choice between joining the armed forces or cleaning up in a hospital for slave wages).
Completely disagree. I did National Service in South Africa and being an instrument of state oppression couldn’t be further from the truth.
I served in the medical corps and can, hand on heart, say it was the most rewarding 2 years of my life. Not only did we learn how to treat some pretty horrific battlefield injuries, but also learnt how to put up drips, give injections and all sorts of other medical related stuff. Part of our duties were to help out in the casualty departments of township hospitals – we also ran the health clinics in the townships when it was too dangerous for Red Cross staff to go to work, innoculated people in the rural areas (in places I never even knew existed).
You know, despite the bitching, it could well be the making of some of these youngsters and would give them an opportunity to see exactly what they are capable of.
Henry, as I mentioned, I’m well aware that those who went through it mostly look back positively. That doesn’t make it right. The state does not own us. It therefore has no claim on our bodies and souls. Ultimately, national service is enforced servitude and there is another word for that…
That doesn’t even begin to start with why it is pragmatically wrong. Our armed forces are highly trained in modern warfare. The last thing they need is to have to waste precious resources baby sitting reluctant intakes.
The idea that it would be the making of them is fanciful at best. it is morally bankrupt at worst. All forms of slavery are.
Henry,
from what you say, there would seem to be no reason to make it compulsory.
Perhaps we can just have it for the badly behaved instead of asbo’s and trips to theme parks.
Instead of baysitting them, our troops could simply practise on them.
Well, I can dream can’t I?
How is it going to ne PAID FOR?
NS is hideously EXPENSIVE, even at near-xlave wages.z
It’s a non-starter.
But all those benfit payments that many families get are also hideously expensive Greg.
I guess that would be the way to sell it – provided it could be proved that it would save money, although I doubt that it would.
My Dad was another who enjoyed his own National Service, although others in his intake did not.
He “celebrated” his 80th birthday last week by plastering a ceiling.
He lost his own Dad to consumption during the war and at 14 became the breadwinner for his Mum and 2 younger siblings.
At 18 he was called up and remembers it being like one long playtime doing the obstacle courses (he is still amazed that some of the others were in tears while doing this) and learning to shoot.
Yep, they taught him to kill alright – and I still have the memory of many a tasty rabbit stew and the odd woodpidgeon pie.
Whilst my own view is along very similar lines to yours, I have been engaged in some very, very heated debates about compulsory military service with my Estonian friends who mostly see the service they have to perform as being their patriotic duty to their country.
Being extremely proud of their heritage and nationality presumably explains the difference in views and, after the last bruising encounter, I certainly won’t be raising the subject again any time soon.
I tend to take the Samuel Johnson view on patriotism š I don’t owe my country anything, certainly not my life or service.
Presumably, The Wasp, your Estonian friends could volunteer to do their patriotic duty, leaving those who feel less patriotic not to do so.
The citizens of South Africa may have benefited from your national service, Henry, but in the main, the SADF with its whites only conscripts was an instrument of state oppression, and not just in South Africa. The SAP was a highly militarised and effective defender of apartheid but when it needed back-up, the SADF was always there:
http://www.sahistory.org.za/article/list-major-massacres-1950
Frankly, the Army doesn’t want them, couldn’t meaningfully use them if it was forced to take them, and doesn’t have the spare people to babysit them on behalf of “society”.
@DocBud. So much you know! Whilst conscription was compulsory for white males, there were numerous non-white soldiers in the SADF. I served under a black sergeant staff nurse who taught me more about wound dressing than I would ever need to know. A top bloke (since retired) and we’ve still kept in touch over the last 30 years.
The so-called “Coloured Corps” and 32 Battalion were predominantly non-white and the hardest bunch of men I have ever come across. It may surprise you to know, DocBud that contrary to the hogwash you have read, the SADF had very strict rules of engagement inside the townships and were not allowed to intervene unless fired upon (and I mean fired upon – stone throwing and being attacked with pangas meant having to withdraw). I did many patrols where we were powerless to prevent violence between warring factions in the townships (usually ANC thugs having a go at the Zulus) because our orders were to leave it to the police.
I always find it interesting that those who have a go about South Africa as was, are those who have never been.
Longrider @ 17
Sam Johnson was remarking on those who, at the end, tried to wrap themselves in the flag … not genuine patriots.
There was, and is, a real difference.
For another take on this, I suggest you look at Diamond Gezzer’s post for today, in the form of a letter form Theresa May (not) ….
http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/
SADF had very strict rules of engagement inside the townships and were not allowed to intervene unless fired upon (and I mean fired upon ā stone throwing and being attacked with pangas meant having to withdraw)
Who was firing on the police during the Sharpeville Massacre?
I always find it interesting that those who have a go about South Africa as was, are those who have never been
Are you saying that the only way one could have appreciated the moral abomination of Apatheid was to have gone to South Africa?
I really do not like compulsory national service whether military or otherwise. If it is good and beneficial for people then there is no need for it to be compulsory. People will volunteer. The very fact that someone has to be criminalised if they decline to go underlines than for most people it is a waste of time. That said, there is no chance that Cameron’s ‘national service’ will become compulsory or common. It will cost a lot of money to run. It won’t happen. It is a soundbite, nothing more.
@Stephen.
SAP does not equal SADF. That’s like equating The Metropolitan Police with 1st Battalion The Rifles.
“Are you saying that the only way one could have appreciated the moral abomination of Apatheid was to have gone to South Africa?”
No, I’m saying that if you haven’t lived with it you can’t understand what it was like. Much the same as I cannot understand the Irish troubles. I haven’t lived in NI and therefore don’t know what it was like to live through the worst of the IRA/Loyalist violence.
I lived in South Africa for nearly 12 years, Henry, during the most turbulent years from 1984 to 1995, two of my children are South Africans. We were there last two years ago.
By suggesting that the violence was “usually ANC thugs having a go at the Zulus” you simply displays your colours. The Inkatha Freedom Party supporters were capable of brutality every bit as much as that displayed by the ANC supporters, and they often had the benefit of being able to operate with police complicity.
The Goldstone Commission and the General Pierre Steyn investigation found evidence of SADF involvement in township violence,including the 7th Medical Battalion:
http://www.nelsonmandela.org/omalley/index.php/site/q/03lv02167/04lv02264/05lv02335/06lv02357/07lv02372/08lv02379.htm
You’ll find a mention of your 32nd Battalion there. The Goldstone Commission found wrt to its rampage through Phola Park that it behaved in a manner:
“completely inconsistent with the function of a peacekeeping force and, in fact, became perpetrators of violence”
I personally never had a problem condemning the violence irrespective of who used it, I have never sought to apologise for violence because I sympathised with the aims of its perpetrators.
@ DocBud.
Interesting reading. Especially as 32 Bat. was made up of ex-ANC/PAC and other assorted former terrorists (SWAPO, MPLA). So it isn’t surprising in the least that a counter-insurgency force goes bananas during a so-called peace-keeping mission.
I can only relate the things I experienced first hand in the townships. And make no mistake Nelson “The World’s Favourite Terrorist” Mandela was not entirely blameless. He could have put a stop to a lot of the violence that took place in the townships but instead chose to make a speech in which he declared to make the country ungovernable. Well he succeeded in that, and it still is.
Greg, yes, I know exactly what Johnson meant. Those who regard enforced military service as a patriotic duty fall firmly within that remit.
Amusing link BTW.
Henry,
“The so-called āColoured Corpsā and 32 Battalion were predominantly non-white and the hardest bunch of men I have ever come across.”
“Especially as 32 Bat. was made up of ex-ANC/PAC and other assorted former terrorists (SWAPO, MPLA). So it isnāt surprising in the least that a counter-insurgency force goes bananas during a so-called peace-keeping mission.”
Slight change of emphasis there.
Some of my best friends served in the SADF, I have nothing against people who went to do their camps as required. However, for the upper echelons of the SADF, and certainly for Magnus Malan, the role of the SADF was to defend and perpetuate the National Party government.
Both sides were equally guilty in making the townships ungovernable. The NP sought to sow division so that they did not face a united opposition and the ANC saw ungovernable townships as a tactic in the ‘struggle’. Hence the repulsive Winnie Mandela comment: “Together, hand in hand, with our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate our country.” Though to be fair the ANC did reprimand her for this comment.
As always, it is the decent, hard-working people who suffer from the machinations of politicians of all hues and the criminals who take advantage of the situation.
Our family loves South Africa, it is a very special part of our family history. Our last visit was to fulfil a promise to our youngest daughter, who was born after we left, which was to take her and try to show her why, for the other five members of her family, South Africa is so special.
@ DocBud – Estonian military service is compulsory rather than voluntary.
The debate I wish I hadn’t started was around my view of the compulsory nature of it equating to the state having an ownership claim on the citizen. Whilst my views haven’t changed I certainly have a different view of what being Estonian means to Estonians and after having been occupied by various countries for the majority of the last 800 years I can see why they feel the way they do about their duties.
It appears it will be his Big Society stylee National Social Service. They’ll be conscripted into “socially useful” activities, that is, farmed out as free labour to “charitable” groups close to the State.
The likely result of this is that the likes of young Jemima Wynde-Turbyne will have parents who know somebody who can get her a nice “gap year” style placement saving the planet somewhere sunny, while kids from council estates will be picking up litter and painting railings. When said kidz fail to respond to this glorious opportunity forced upon them by the State with sufficient “reform”, it will simply be declared that More Of The Same Is Needed To Fix Broken Britain.
If my country was occupied by an invading force, I wouldn’t need compulsory service to fight. I would take up arms willingly. For any other reason, I would vigorously resist.
That was my point, The Wasp. If people feel strongly that it is their patriotic duty to serve their nation in the armed forces then they would not need to be compelled to serve, recruitment halls would be overflowing with cheery volunteers happily putting their life on hold for a couple of years.
Do you know, I’m very sick of this subject. It’s boring.
Every time Camerobrownoblairomong brings it up, it gets rejected, and for the same reasons. It’s not happening in any guise for all these reasons and many more and the next political leader that advocates it deserves to spend the rest of his (or her) life in abject misery for such a pointless, authoritarian, mean-spirited, defective policy.
Thank you.
Longrider, but some governments (Taiwan, Singapore, Koreas) want their citizens to be trained and ready to fight when the enemy comes. In a real emergency, nobody has time to teach a bunch of lazy arses how to shoot a rifle.
The Wasp, places like Estonia are very much a nation state, therefore everyone feels (quite rightly) a patriotic duty to their government. Seriously, how many black people live in Estonia? It is quite different for most other countries.
Ian B, yes it is social rather than military service. But school is compulsory. Why not just incorporate this service thingy into the GCSE curriculum instead of making it separate? If your kids take the IB, you should know what I’m talking about. (The IB is crap and a waste of time btw.)
I wonder what would happen for dual nationals. If this becomes compulsory and I have kids, I will just take them to Australia when they are 15.
I think it should probably be compulsory for any criminals under 16 though. And for non violent criminals over 16 as well. They can work for free and contribute their wages to compensate their victims.
It doesn’t matter what the governments of Taiwan, Singapore of Korea want. They do not own their citizens any more than ours owns us. Compulsory service is always wrong.
You have this arse about face. We do not owe a duty to our governments, they owe a duty to us. They serve us, not the other way around.
What has this to do with the price of fish?
But school is compulsory.
I don’t agree with that either, certainly to the age we currently impose it. But school is at least pretending to provide the child with something- education- rather than just using them as a State flunky.
I’m never fond of the “we already do this thing, so this other thing is only a bit more of it” argument.
It’s a variation of the tu quoque fallacy.
JQ: But school is compulsory.
No, it isn’t. And I should know – I was home educated.
Longrider – the distinction between government and country over there is the issue I believe – Estonians feel a strong patriotic duty to their country (as a nation of people) as distinct from the elected government of the day.
In which case, as has already been said, it needn’t be compulsory as people will be queueing round the block to sign up.