Sean Gabb on Ukraine

February 25, 2022 Longrider General News, Political 43

I normally agree with Sean Gabb – even if I find him a bit caustic. However, this time, I think he’s off point.

  1. Have we no duty to help the brave democrats in the Ukraine, who are yearning to be free of the neo-Soviet tyranny that Mr Putin represents?

No. It is none of our business what gang of bleary kleptocrats occupies the ministry buildings in Kiev. Any British politician who so much as whispers a desire for armed intervention should be hounded from office.

Okay, I appreciate that this is a fairly standard isolationist and libertarian response – none of our business and we should keep well out. It’s a response I’ve often made here about various little hotspots around the world. Often, they are hotspots because of the meddling (and the EU has definitely been meddling here). However… What we have just witnessed is an aggressor marching into a sovereign nation. Yes, I’m aware of the breakaway states that prefer to align with Russia and the Ukrainian response to that being similar to Spain’s response to the Catalonians. That said, it does not justify an invasion by a foreign power.

Putin is old KGB from the Soviet era. It would seem that he is looking to return to the good old days. This incursion, if not resisted, will simply lead to other neighbouring states being vulnerable. If he can get away with invading and installing a puppet regime here, why not elsewhere, for who is to stop him? And it’s not just the old Soviet states – China will be looking on as it eyes Taiwan, taking cues from Moscow.

A sovereign state falls within the broad scope of property rights. This is my home, you have no right to take it. Ukraine is important to us as the Sudetenland was. It may be a foreign country a long way away, but it will affect us, like it or not and our response will affect how things progress from here. So do we have a Chamberlain or a Churchill in Number Ten?

One final point here. It ain’t the bleary kleptocrats who are being killed, is it? Or should we simply not care that ordinary people are being bombed for no reason other than where they live?

I don’t fully know how we should respond. A third world war is unthinkable, yet we have a power pushing towards a situation that could result in just that as Putin tests a weakened, bloated west. While we worry about pronouns and electric cars, he has been re-arming big time. History is rhyming. He is strong, while we are weak woke and he knows it.

Edited to add: I do not share Gabb’s anti Americanism, either.

 

43 Comments

  1. To me it’s clearly an internal matter of the former USSR and nothing at all to do with us. Picking a fight with the worlds largest nuclear power would be madness, particularly as you state, when the west has made itself so weak
    Putin is being a bully and some people would say we should stand up to bullies, but as far as I’m concerned, all countries are now ruled by bullies. I see no reason why the average person should suffer unnecessarily, just because our bully has an issue with a bigger bully.
    That doesn’t help the average Ukranian, but as I say, the consequences of getting involved would be much more severe

    • The problem, of course, is that the ordinary citizen is suffering and they are being killed. While Ukraine was a part of the Soviet empire, it isn’t any more, so it’s not internal – as say, Syria and Libya were. It would be like us trying to annex the republic of Ireland again. Would the Irish ask for and expect help to repel the invaders and would it be right and moral for others to assist?

      I don’t have an answer, but I find any invasion of a sovereign state deeply repugnant. Is it our business? I have a horrible feeling that it will become our business eventually.

      • As the Republic of Ireland is not a member of NATO, it would seem that we could now invade it with impunity – after all, it would be hypocritical for other states to get involved if they aren’t prepared to do the same for Ukraine.

        However, I rather suspect that the substantial ‘Irish vote’ in the USA may take a different view, the citizens of Boston would be enlisting to fight the evil English imperialists before the first bomb-dust had settled.

  2. It’s internal to that region of old USSR and it’s politics and problems. Enough so that we can and should consider ourselves outsiders.
    I understand that ordinary citizens are suffering, but intervention from the west could and probably would invite much more suffering for ordinary citizens on a much bigger scale. Sounds a bit callous but I’d prefer that suffering not be expanded any more than necessary. We can’t beat Russia in a full on war, so to get involved to that extent would be a waste of life
    I think you may be right about it becoming our business eventually, and that prospect scares the hell out of me

    • It’s internal in the same way that Ireland was part of the British Empire. It is now a sovereign state and no longer a part of the old Soviet empire. The people have a right to self determination. No, I don’t want us to get involved in an all out shooting war, but unless Putin gets a bloody nose, he will keep doing it. So I tend to go along with John Galt’s solution. Arm and train the Ukrainian partisans and let them bog down the occupiers, making life hell for them as the mujahedeen did.

      • Ok LR, let’s use Ireland as an example. Could you tell us how you would react if:

        The regime ruling the ROI was neither elected or legitimate but the result of a US backed coup in 2014.

        The ROI had been shelling NI into oblivion for 8 years in an ethnic cleansing exercise.

        The ROI had US donated missiles placed along the NI border. Missiles capable of hitting Birmingham or London, or even Bristol.

        Poke the bear, get mauled. Simple.

        • I don’t really need to. The point about a puppet government notwithstanding, the events of the nineteen seventies are an example. We didn’t invade the Republic because of it.

      • “So I tend to go along with John Galt’s solution. Arm and train the Ukrainian partisans and let them bog down the occupiers”

        Putin has sealed the whole region. How would you get the arms/training personnel in? Its already been declared, since airlines have stopped all flights in that area, any aircraft entering Ukranian airspace will be bought down, civilian or military. Same for the water, and since Belarus is onside, no entry by land.

        My solution: Keep out of it. Boris has neither the power or the right to interfere beyond finger wagging and useless sanctions. The regime in Kiev has sowed the wind, now they will reap the whirlwind.

        • From what the reports are telling us, it’s pretty much already happened. From now on in, they may well need more arms. Do you seriously think that it cannot be done? Government s across the world cannot stop illegal arms shipments. Where there’s a will and all that.

          • The CIA was providing paramilitary training to Ukrainians in the AZOV battalion, a bunch of neo nazis who have become embedded into the Ukrain armed forces. They have been doing that for years.

            Now that Russia has stepped in it can’t continue. The AZOV battalion are stationed mostly around Kiev, they are the core fighters there. Putin will take them down within days. My guess is that when this started, the first thing to have happened is that those CIA operatives vanished.

            That’s why I’m with Putin on this issue, because the Russian forces are there to rid the Ukrainians of this neo-nazi element. Putin himself explains this better than I can.

            https://brandnewtube.com/watch/putin-addresses-ukraine-military_5nABV8gz2Z5zsVX.html

  3. And this is what is wrong with the west, not only are most of its politicians unprincipled, self-interested bedwetters who think that curling up in the fetal position and blubbering is the best response to bullies, many of its citizens are too. Putin will have to be stood up to eventually, history says that is best done early on.

    Britain should invade Sri Lanka, after all, it’s just internal to the old British Empire.

      • Canada has its own problems and on that score, the deafening silence from the rest of the western world is shameful.

        Dunno, though, India might intervene… That said, it’s about what is ethical and right. If you see someone being beaten to a pulp on the street by a thug, do you intervene? This is a rhetorical question because none of us really knows how we would react unless we were in the situation, but I’d like to think that I’d have the courage to do something.

        On the subject in hand, if no one does anything, Putin will see it as weakness and a green light to carry on and he will carry on. So, I repeat, arming the defenders and giving them assistance short of troops on the ground is probably the way to go.

        • Canada certainly does have it’s problems 🙂
          I did intervene in such a situation once. I was arrested and released on police bail for a week while they tried to find the lad, who’d done a runner, to see if he wanted to press charges against me. After the week I was sent on my way with a warning not to get involved in future, but to just call the police.
          I do understand the moral stance though, but don’t see it as black and white. It’s not easy to have an answer

  4. The comparison with the Sudetenland is apt. There is no end to Putin’s territorial demands, even the restoration of the boundaries of the old USSR would still leave him salivating for “Just one more” in the same way that Hitler did. Putin wants this war because he wants to put fear into the hearts of those sovereign nations which escaped from Russia’s grip when the Soviet Union collapsed and unlike Belarus have refused to bow down to the Kremlin as good satellites.

    In that respect, Ukraine is not our fight in the same way that the Sudetenland was not our fight, but unless Putin’s ruthlessness is curbed by both international and domestic opposition, the next one will become our fight, be it the invasion of the Baltic states, Poland or elsewhere.

    So go hard on the sanctions and start exporting those Javelin missiles and anything else the Ukrainians can meaningfully use as fast as they can be manufactured. The best way to bring Putin down is for his forces to be bogged down in resistance and then forced into humiliating retreat and the only way of doing this is by giving the Ukrainians the assistance to repel Russian forces on their own territory.

  5. Couldn’t Putin just say ‘Any more lip from you lot and I’ll turn your gas off’? We have plenty of our own gas of course, but our stupid politicians won’t let us extract it. Part of the problem is that Western countries have totally lost their way, totally preoccupied with trivia and tripe about CO2. The likes of Putin can see what a bunch of tossers we are and he is emboldened by that.

  6. If the events are of concern because of adherence to the idea of property rights then our response should be a commercial response, that is sanctions and appropriation of Russian wealth lodged outside Russia.

    And instead of the gradual build of sanctions we should apply maximum pressure from the start and keep it going forever, or until Russia withdraws from parts of the Ukraine. Or, as an alternative, apply one sanction per day then remove them at a rate of one sanction a day *after* the issues have been resolved.

    • Well, one thing we learned during the Canadian protests is that Anonymous is used as a CIA asset, so…

  8. I see it differently. The Russians see NATO countries as the hostile powers here. Ukraine has historically been part of Russia, and the Ukrainians and NATO have been poking the bear. Encroaching on Russian borderlands for some thirty years. Then there’s the ongoing conflicts in Donbas and Luhansk where the Ukrainians have been shelling the seceding territories in a tit for tat manner since 2014.

    From what I can make out, NATO siting military assets within Ukraine and threatening Russia was the final straw. That’s what’s got the Russki’s all riled up and prepared to go to war.

    And no, I’m not on Russia’s ‘side’. But I don’t think NATO has any business in Ukraine either. That’s just asking for trouble.

    • Yup and I intimated this in the OP. That said, NATO has a no first strike policy, so was never a real threat to Russia even if it was pushing it by encroaching eastwards.

      • If we’re talking about NATO’s honesty here in honouring its own policies, I have just two words – Minsk and Budapest.

        The policy you talk about does not seem to exist (I can find no information about first strike policies concerning conventional warfare). There does exist however, the NFU (No First Use) policy which only applies to nuclear weapons. NATO has repeatedly refused to adopt it.

    • I agree. It is all presented as if Ukraine was the land of milk and honey, but the eastern part has been separated for a few years, and I do not remember anybody saying anything when they were regularly shelled by the western part.

      All this could have been avoided by giving Putin what he wanted in terms of nato expansion (why does nato still exist anyway?) and stopping considering Russia as an enemy for the last 25 years. It is a stupendous waste, which I lay firmly at the door of western politicians, especially US ones.

      There really isn’t anything those bastards cannot screw up at best.

        • I agree, although if the Russians are already in Kiev, there cannot have been much resistance and fighting but I’m sure the fake news media will don their flak jackets regardless.

          Where were we when the separatist regions were bombarded by the corrupt ukrainian government? Oh yes, Biden was getting paid off.

          There are multiple aspects to this story and to have got to this just shows the amateurishness of UK and european politics.

          That said, it comes handy so that we don’t talk about the corona fiasco anymore. just when it is starting to unravel…

          • I think the rapid advance is more to do with overwhelming might. The Ukrainians were always going to be at a disadvantage when it comes of conventional warfare. A guerrilla campaign, however is a different matter and it is always going to favour the defenders as they have bolt holes and support among the population. They can strike and disappear. I expect the army to melt into the general population once Putin’s forces are fully ensconced. They could bog the Russian forces down indefinitely if they play clever.

      • NATO still exists because Russia is an enemy, with aggressive, expansionist intentions. If Putin occupies Ukraine, he significantly increases the NATO countries on his doorstep from two (Estonia and Latvia) to six (Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and Romania).

      • @monoi

        “All this could have been avoided by giving Putin what he wanted in terms of nato expansion”

        They did – when the Berlin wall came down NATO agreed with Russia (not Putin but Gorbachev I think) that if they got Germany, they would not expand one more inch Eastward. Having obtained agreement, NATO went on to break that promise many times over. They have finally crossed the red line as far as Putin is concerned.

  10. “And it’s not just the old Soviet states – China will be looking on as it eyes Taiwan, taking cues from Moscow”

    Biden confirmed China can take Taiwan if they want by saying ‘USA will not get involved in disputes involving secessionist states’

    One thing I note is despite msm bigging up Ukrainian public as patriotic, taking up arms, ready to fight over past few weeks it hasn’t happened. They don’t seem to care if Russia in charge or are fleeing their country

    One chap C4 interviewed yesterday at petrol station “I’ve filled car, going fishing for a few weeks”

    Putin Laughs at Woke West
    MI6 agents are being encouraged to confront their inherent ‘white privilege’… but I bet they’re not checking their spooks’ pronouns in the Kremlin
    As Russian tanks roll into Ukraine, one of the most senior spooks charged with keeping us safe is more concerned with ensuring that his staff use the ‘correct pronouns’ at all times
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1054917

    @Bill
    Seconded

    @monoi
    Putin applied to join NATO in iirc 2004 due to China threat. I understand his predecessor did too

    • The mass exodus is fairly typical of an invasion. The guerilla war hasn’t really got going yet as the regular army is the resistance. When they are defeated, I expect the guerilla tactics to start.

    • @LR
      I disagree, msm and Ukrainians said they would fight to the death to stop any invasion.

      The ‘normal’ you refer to is mostly MEA countries where undemocratic despots rule and citizens don’t care about their country – this the normal you and I have lived during

      • Although we need to treat the MSM with caution, it would seem that resistance has been greater than the Russians expected. As for refugees, the flight of non combatants dates back though other conflicts before our time, so I don’t see this one as particularly atypical. At the moment, the armed forces seem to be doing a fairly good job of stalling the invasion, so partisans aren’t really needed yet. If the Russian advance succeeds, then, I would expect something similar to Afghanistan to emerge – as the regular forces will melt into the remaining civilian population. So, I’d say, just watch and see.

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