In this case, it is where to place a satnav.
Confusion over the use of satnavs deepened today as police wrongly told drivers not to place the devices anywhere other than in the bottom right corner of the windscreen.
Greater Manchester Police was criticised after tweeting that “everywhere else is illegal”, despite the law making no mention of where to place a satnav.
There has never been any law relating to where to place a satnav and if the police had told me there was, I would have challenged them to show me where the law does, indeed, say that. I am reminded of an incident about thirty years ago when a friend of mine was towing a trailer behind his sidecar outfit. The police pulled him over and asked if he was allowed to do that. “You tell me,” he said.
The police do not necessarily know the law. This does not mean that the law needs to be clarified – because there is nothing more clear than there not being a law – and it does not mean we need new laws because the police indulge in incompetence.
Tonight senior lawyers told The Telegraph the lack of specificity was allowing police to make up their own interpretation of the law.
It does no such thing. If a law does not exist, it does not exist, there is nothing to interpret – because it does not exist.
Police need to be very careful that what they are saying is absolutely correct.
You don’t say.
The confusion was compounded later in the day as GMP then tweeted advice to motorists which said “using a satnav while driving” could result in prosecution.
However, this was subsequently removed, with the word “using” replaced with “touching or engaging” after the RAC pointed out the error.
Fucking hellski!
Simon Williams, a spokesman for the motoring organisation, said: “There does appear to be real confusion among drivers regarding both mobile phones as satnavs and where to put them.
“We think the law could be better clarified.”
You can’t get more clarity than the fact that it does not exist.
However, Mr Lawler said there was a danger of “over-legislating” and that both drivers and police officers should use their common sense.
Finally! This, precisely this.
A GMP spokesman said: “If you need to put your satnav on your windscreen the law states that you must make sure that you position it so it is not obscuring your view.
“If you get stopped by the police and have a device that is deemed to be obscuring your view you may be persecuted and could face a £50 fine.”
Honest, at least…
GMP don’t exactly inspire confidence do they?
Very similar from a legal standpoint to this business of Aussie police fining a motorcyclist for attaching a camera to his crash helmet.
https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2016/02/gopro-on-motorcycle-helmets-confirmed-as-legal-in-court/
He won, they lost. No more harassment.
(While it may look decidedly peculiar, their footage can capture spectacular examples of stupid as well as crashes that are so good they can be used in court. Or sold to the chaps who compile YouTube videos.)
I know that it sounds like a cliche, but GMP are clearly over resourced if they really think they have time to run around twittering and persecuting motorists for invented micro offences like this.
Presumably all the murders, stabbings, burglaries and drug dealing in Manchester has been solved.
Perhaps someone could throw this story at Andy Burnham the next time he starts whining on about lack of money to do stuff…
You’re right, we don’t need more laws. In fact there ought to be a law against it.
Erm… Hang on.
We need ONE more law. (Then we can pension off all the MPs and get on with our lives. :-))
Hmmm, not sure where I stand on this. I don’t like the police inventing laws to suit themselves (and I’ve had enough experience of them doing so) but, I don’t see why people insist on putting a small tv screen smack bang in the middle of their windscreen. They wouldn’t be allowed to do that with a tv receiving Coronation Street and I don’t see the difference. FFS, a small chip in your windscreen is an MOT failure so why should people be allowed to obscure their vision with these horrid devices. I fully understand the concerns of the police in this instance and frankly if someone were to have one running at the time of an accident I would gladly accept them being charged with Driving without due care and attention. So in effect there would be no reason for a new law, but clarity on the fact that they could leave themselves open to prosecution under an existing law would be a good idea.
And you hold a driving licence? The two are not remotely the same. One is designed for entertainment and the other is a driving aid. The vast majority of drivers are able to use them perfectly safely in the same way that they use a speedometer. We have no need for any new laws relating to them. And, no, sitting in the corner of the windscreen they no more obscure the vision of the road ahead than the old VED certificate did.
Don’t be so bloody silly. I have one running all the time on both bikes and the car and no, I am not driving without due care and attention. I’ve heard some nonsense in my time but this takes the biscuit.
If you don’t like satnavs, that’s fine. Don’t use one. But do not make claims that using them amounts to driving without due care and attention because it does not and don’t claim that using one adversely affects a driver’s ability to see and concentrate on the road ahead, because it does not.
“horrid devices”
We can clearly see where your bias lies. If you hate them that much, don’t use them. That doesn’t mean that all the countless people who are safely aided by these devices should have them taken away
It’s worse than that. It’s the assertion that somehow we cannot drive safely while using them. An idiotic assertion without any basis in fact. Any driver who cannot manage the extra information a satnav provides without losing control of their vehicle shouldn’t be in possession of the driving licence. The silly attempts to draw a comparison with a televisions screen and a chipped windscreen are simply attempts to justify a personal prejudice.
The DVSA are now including using one as part of the driving test. They have moved with the times. If it constituted driving without due care and attention, they wouldn’t be doing it – and if it was equivalent to using a television screen or a broken windscreen, they wouldn’t be doing it.
Should you now not look at your speedo out of the corner of your eye by the same logic he has applied? “Sorry officer, I was doing 40 in a 30 because I daren’t look at my speedo”
Yes I do hold a driving licence. I have also been a professional driver in many varied capacities, from lorries down to motorbikes and if you think that having a lit screen on the middle of your windscreen is not a distraction then you are an idiot. It is not the same as a speedo as speedos are located lower down with some screening so as not to interfere with your vision. Having them located further down or over in a corner is not the argument here. It is about them being located where they will cause a distraction, but carry on with your strawmanning regardless. I don’t like them but I have no problem with people using them properly. They give out audible instructions ffs so why the need to look at them at all? You may as well stick a map up on the windscreen with a torch shining on it. Another thing….the police deal with a hell of a lot more incidents on the road than either you or I so if they think that having them in the middle of the windscreen is a distraction then I think I’d rather run with that rather than the opinions of some stranger on the web…especially as the police opinion ties in with my own opinion based on the experience of spending most of my life driving professionally.
But I didn’t say that, did I? Nor anything even close to it.
I am a qualified motorcycle instructor and have been an ADI in my time, so I’m well aware of road safety issues and there are no road safety issues here as millions of miles have been covered using them perfectly safely. The very rare occasions where satnavs have been cited as a problem have been down to driver incompetence, not the technology. The DVSA now use these in tests, so again, not a safety issue. No one has ever said anything about being in the middle of the screen (strawman argument there) and yes, it is exactly like a digital speedo and is no more distracting.
That is precisely the argument here because the police are trying to state that anywhere other than the bottom right of the screen is illegal and it isn’t.
You didn’t read the linked article, did you?
Says the stranger on the internet.
Greater Manchester Police Farce are not “over resourced”, they couldn’t detect water in the River Mersey if you threw them in. These idiotic canards at least serve the purpose of keeping these “police” who were too dim even for the RAF MP’s safely out of the way of ordinary people.
My sat nav mounts centrally on the top of the dashboard. I fitted a mounting bracket when I got tired of the window sucker coming unstuck. From my driving position it slightly obscures my view of the car’s bonnet.
The window sticker coming unstuck is a perennial problem. I have the same with the dashcam. I’m not sure slightly obscuring the view of the bonnet is going to be a huge problem. Likewise the lower right corner of the windscreen. We have three dimensional vision, so can see around it anyway. The obscuring the windscreen argument just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. Millions of perfectly safe miles have been covered using these devices. The GMP are being idiots here.
As time moves on, they will increasingly be built into the dashboard anyway as mine is in the car and the RT has a slot in the dashboard to mount the bike one.
One of the reasons I like my old Scenic is that my satnav is on the fixed front quarterlight – younger viewers may have to look that up – and so much easier to see than on the faraway windscreen.
Yup, that would work with the Scenic.
So rear view mirror is a hazard?
Only if the driver looks at it.
Likewise the speedometer and all the other bits of information on the dashboard.
Since when was your dashboard located in the middle of the windscreen? Or the rear view mirror? They are not so stop trying to spin the argument to where it isn’t….Disingenuous just doesn’t cover it…
The only one being disingenuous here is you. No one has said anything about placing them in the middle of the windscreen. You just made that up and tried to put it into my argument. Well, I’m not having it.
The built in satnav on my Renault sits just above the dashboard to the left of the steering column. Some people mount a portable one in the same place. It is not a distraction there just as it is not a distraction to the right of the steering column. And it is certainly not a television screen. The rest of your argument is merely an attempt to justify the strawman you have already built.
On your one point, I remember when I was around 9 – (59 years ago) – a chap down the road from us had an Ariel Square Four combo (large Watsonian sidecar) and he regularly went off with it towing a small caravan. Very small caravan as I recall, probably a basic 2-berth. Since I remember it as a regular occurrence for a few years, it would appear that Plod in days of yore either had proper Plodding to do or didn’t see anything amiss with it.
Current law does seem ambiguous and concealed:
Long Read: The law on using a mobile [device] while driving is an out of date and incomprehensible mess
tbh, after reading that I’m still not certain what is legal and what is not
eg my mobile phone is also a two-way push-to-talk radio, built in not app.
Result: two-way radio use legal, including holding mic with button, but holding mobile phone illegal.
No surprises there, of course. However, a bit of common sense will keep you out of trouble.