Guilt by association now.
The US has imposed sanctions against Russian President Vladimir Putin’s inner circle, including his daughters.
The list also includes the family of Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and major banks.
The measures follow new revelations of atrocities by Russian troops in Ukraine, including images of bodies of civilians scattered on the streets of Bucha, near the capital Kyiv.
So have Putin’s daughters or other relatives been responsible for any of this? What evidence is there of their guilt? Other than being related to Putin? Jesus, but the level of morality in this world has plummeted. We are now visiting punishment onto the sons (or daughters) now. Unto the seventh son, perhaps?
The US said that Mr Putin’s daughters, Katerina Vladimirovna Tikhonova and Maria Vladimirovna Vorontsova, were being put under sanctions “for being the adult children of Putin, a person whose property and interests in property are blocked”.
That’s it. That’s their crime. Christ almighty!
Asked why the US was targeting Mr Putin’s daughters, a senior Biden administration official said the US thought they could be in control of some of their father’s assets.
Evidence? We don’t need no steenkin’ evidence. Just thinking that they might is enough these days.
Deomcrats are, and have always been, a stain on the world.
“Hey Dad, I hear you’ve been banned from doing business in [foreign country]. Do you want me to do it for you?”
“Hey [daughter], I’ve been banned from doing business in [foreign country], would you do it for me?”
That would never happen?
Maybe, but, you know, evidence rather than assuming guilt.
The point, and this has been fundamental to all ideas of justice, is that you need to prove it. You can’t assume it to be so. Only Commies and Fascists would do that. Like Biden, Boris, Macron, Trudeau and, it seems, FrankH.
Hey Dad, I hear as VP you’ve been banned from doing business in [foreign country]. Do you want me to do it for you?”
“Hey Hunter, I’ve been banned from doing business in [foreign country] because I’m VP, would you do it for me?”
That would never happen?
In this case, evidence does exist
considering the behaviour of the Biden ‘crime’ family, this is pure hypocricy
Given the behaviour of the Biden crime family, this is projection.
Maybe they assume that because they are at it, everyone else is.
Indeed leftists always project
sorry, I should have included the Clintons (and Obamas)
You make some very worrying points. But equally worrying, dictators, despots and terrorists will draw the ordinary people of their country around them as a protective layer believing that their enemies will balk at the humanitarian costs. Think Palestinians firing rockets from positions in playgrounds and hospitals.
Diplomacy is said to be war by other means but for the past few years diplomacy has been less and less effective, and appears to be taking longer to achieve anything.
We’re trying sanctions against the Russians, with mixed effect. What alternatives (other than war) are there?
Looking at the current performance of the rouble, our sanctions are having less than no effect.
But, of course, there are no alternatives. When all is said and done, no one in their right mind would risk thermonuclear war for Ukraine (which let us not forget was regarded until only 2 months ago as Europe’s most corrupt state, and one of whose main industries appeared to be money laundering)
I wouldn’t necessarily believe what you see on a Bloomberg screen. As in Soviet times the official USD/RUB exchange rate and the black market exchange rate inside Russia are VERY different.
There’s a black market in Russia for dollars and euros with deals organized on Telegram and money changing hands at train stations
Guilt by association.
Indeed leftists always project
@DiscoveredJoys
“dictators, despots and terrorists will draw the ordinary people of their country around them as a protective layer”
Indeed, think Ukraine military putting snipers, missle launchers etc and firing guns and rockets from hospitals, residential tower blocks etc.
Also using a shopping mall as a base for military equipment and personel
Funny how virtue signallers approve of using civilian adults and children as human shields
C4 News Thursday weakly challenged Ukraine on why they were defying Geneva Convention and torturing & murdering Russian POWs
@Pcar
The most sensible thing I’ve heard anyone say for weeks. They have also violated the Geneva Convention by torturing and killing Russian POWs.
https://southfront.org/suspicious-exchanges-of-prisoners-of-war-testimonies-by-russian-pows-videos/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZ2ZzoD-W0
@John Galt
Since Putin has now pegged the ruble to gold, the West has basically shagged itself with the sanctions and Zelensky worship/virtue signalling. They come back like a boomerang every time.
@Ripper: It’s an interesting move, but the problem that I have with such claims is:
1) How real is it? Can Russian plebs (not just oligarchs or mates of Putin) actually walk into a branch of the Bank of Russia (or whatever) and say “Please exchange this 1 million rubles into an equivalent amount in gold”?
2) Suddenly pronouncing “The Ruble will be backed by gold at x Ruble’s per oz or whatever is just another form of fiat which can easily be reversed or altered at Putin’s whim.
3) Even if new Rubble notes were printed with “We promise to pay the bearer the equivalent in gold” on them would that promise be worth the paper it was printed on?
I’m not overly fond of trusting the word of someone, even a nations leader who goes on TV every night and lies to his population about an illegal invasion that he’s conducting against the country next door.
@John Galt
I’m not financially minded so perhaps you know better than me on the gold standard. I think your #2 is the point, Russia has demanded payment in rubles for gas/oil, which has sent Europe into fits of apoplexy, especially Germany. The Russian minister (can’t remember what of) said that countries unfriendly to Russia had to pay in rubles or no gas – “we do not run a charity”.
Iran is also making moves to replace the US dollar with rubles and the dollar, apparently is on the edge of losing reserve status. Turkey has refused the US plea to send in its Russian made S-400 missile defense systems, in exchange for the newer but far inferior US systems.
On your point #3, fiat money is fiat money because its not backed by anything of value. The words “I promise to pay the bearer” make it nothing more than a promissory note – an IOU that never gets paid, because the system runs on debt. On the other hand, a currency backed by an actual commodity which has value like gold, does indeed hold the equivalent amount of gold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSPzc5lNp08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP_1PaLK350
On your last point, who gets to decide if the invasion is illegal? The US and its tools the UN and NATO? Because no member of BRICS has deemed it illegal as far as I know. It seems that, as someone who distrusts people’s word, you are happy to take the word of only one side. In war, propaganda happens on both sides.
There are, we can agree, Russian tanks currently waging war within Ukraine’s borders. Ukraine is an independent sovereign nation. Ergo, Russia has invaded an independent sovereign nation. I don’t need propaganda to tell me that this is illegal in exactly the same way that the Iraq invasion was illegal. I don’t care what Putin’s squabbles with NATO are, just as I don’t care about his concerns over the civil war in the Donbas. Invasion of another country is wrong in all circumstances. That a particular organisation has not at this point actively stated that it is illegal doesn’t alter this observation.
As I’ve mentioned here before, I had some sympathy with the Russian position prior to the invasion. I have none now and I hope they get a seriously bloody nose out of this one, and following the peace when it arrives, Like John Galt, I want to see parades of defendants at the Hague – including Putin. Well, one can hope.
None of this means that I am in favour of the sickening virtue signalling going on across the western world both in the media and even so far as people’s gardens. No, I don’t have a Ukrainian flag flying outside my house. Give me strength. Most of these dolts probably couldn’t point it out on a map a couple of months ago.
Agreed. Equally, even if the UN has said “Okey Dokey” to Messrs. Blair and Bush to invade Iraq it would STILL have been illegal.
I’m talking from a law point of view, not an emotional one. We, the West, deem the invasion to be illegal. Screw what the rest of the world thinks, that makes it okay to push the Ukrainians into full scale war by sending armaments, so that those people in the Donbass region get shelled back to the stone age for another year, on top of the 8 years they have already suffered. That makes it okay to interfere. This isn’t about aiding Ukraine its about using them to damage Russia. The US put Zelensky into power and the provocation against Russia started long before the invasion. Sorry but I don’t support hypocrites and criminals.
This war boils down to a couple of obvious things – firstly, the Ukrainian government is weak and letting a Nazi element within its ranks dictate what it does. Secondly, this war was provoked by the West, in particular the USA. Its really a war between the USA and Russia, except that the US prefers to have the Ukrainians fighting it for them, because Russia is not Iraq and they’re too cowardly to take on another nuclear power. Just because you and the West declare it illegal, that does not make it so. Russia has the right to protect itself against NATO and an obligation to protect those people (who are also sovereign independent states) in the Donbas region. Just like we had the right to defend the Falklands in 1982. And before you say “its still an invasion”, those Russian speaking people in Donbas had been begging Russia to intervene for 8 years. So you could equally say, the Russians were invited.
The Americans have a lot to lose if Russia isn’t defeated in Ukraine. All the corruption there will come to light, Hunter Biden’s laptop is but the tip of the iceberg. The Russians have already begun to release documents.
No, they didn’t. Seriously, they didn’t. He was elected in 2019. The so-called coup in 2014 was – even if favoured by the US – a popular uprising against a Russian backed government that was putting political opponents into jail. Yup, I know, the replacement is just as bad as far as that is concerned, but doesn’t alter the point. It was an internal affair. That the west favoured this outcome does not mean that they put Zelensky into power, because, objectively, they didn’t, the Ukrainian electorate did.
Does this include Putin and his tendency to have political opponents imprisoned or assassinated?
Murder is illegal. Invading a foreign country and killing its citizens is murder by any other name. It is objectively illegal. It is as illegal as the incursion into Iraq. Some agency or other saying it’s okay, doesn’t mean that it is. It isn’t.
Those two are not remotely comparable. We responded to an aggressive and illegal invasion – Putin is doing the invading here. Donbas is part of Ukraine and therefore any fighting in that region is a civil war. It is not up to Russia to intervene.
That’s some sophistry there, old bean. No, really, that’s just bollocks. It is not up to Russia to invade and never was. And you are assuming that Russian speaking people in Donbas are also in favour of being under Russian control. Not necessarily so.
Possibly so. But corruption in Ukraine is no more of the justification than what was going on in Iraq or Syria. It’s an internal matter. There is no justification for invading another country. It might have been ok in the middle ages, it is not in the 21st century.
As I said, I really, really hope that this brings Putin down and leaves Russia with such a bloody nose, they think twice about pulling a similar stunt for at least a generation. They deserve Afghanistan mark two, frankly.
On point 2. Pegging to Gold should work, gold price goes up, rouble goes up and vice-versa. Problem is, lot’s of Russia’s gold is stored in “trustworthy, honest” BoE vaults and now sanctioned
BoE “trustworthy, honest” diminishing every day. Same as US $ as reserve currency. West is damaging itself by letting emotion trump rationality
Too many, inc here are addicted to the emotional woke do gooder cause, maybe without even realising due to incessant propoganda everywhere
Atrocities seem to be a slavic thing. It certainly predates the communist regime and events during the Bosnian war tell us that it postdates it as well.
Without wishing to go all tu quoque, the invading army appears to be happy enough to break the Geneva convention on this as well, so my sympathies are somewhat limited.
I agree. Go back to the Red Terror of 1918-1922 and you’ll see pretty much the same things happening, by Slavs on other Slavs. The same playbook of rape, murder and looting is in operation during the Ukraine invasion.
@LR,
Bucha – already debunked as a Zelinsky false flag photo op.
The railway station in Kramatorsk reported in our MSM today. Reportedly the station was hit by a Russian missile. I’ve seen the remnants of the missile and its a Ukrainian Tochka-U, NOT a Russian Iskander as reported. What’s more, the Tochka-U had a cluster fragmentation warhead, which is internationally illegal.
Here’s the difference. Pic#1 – Tochka-U. Pic#2 – The remnants of the Tochka-U that hit the railway station (sans warhead). Pic#3 – Iskander.
https://southfront.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/Tochka-768×852.jpg
Sorry. I didn’t realised you were a Russian troll.
Do you really think that insults me? Just goes to show what a woke little sheep you are, parroting whatever the man on TV tells you to. But yeah, I’m Putin’s brother, so what you going to do about it?
“No, they didn’t. Seriously, they didn’t. He was elected in 2019.”
Yes they did. Check it out for yourself instead of sucking up whatever the MSM tell you. The “election” was as fake as the USA 2020 one. Isn’t it a coincidence that ALL the staff at the TV station Zelensky worked in, went straight into government. Regime change is a trade mark of the CIA. Check up on Victoria Nuland and her husband’s activities in Ukraine at that time, if you can be bothered to discover the truth.
“Does this include Putin and his tendency to have political opponents imprisoned or assassinated?”
It includes anyone who I think is in the wrong, which in this particular case, does not include Putin. Please name those opponents Putin has had imprisoned or executed. I can name opponents that Zelinsky has done this to, in the last few weeks, plus shut down all opposing media.
“Those two are not remotely comparable. We responded to an aggressive and illegal invasion – Putin is doing the invading here. Donbas is part of Ukraine and therefore any fighting in that region is a civil war. It is not up to Russia to intervene.”
Rubbish. The two are comparable in the sense that we had an obligation to defend Brit citizens abroad, regardless of it being an invasion. Mind you, Whitehall was so concerned that, although they knew in advance of the invasion they left it to NP8901, an 81 strong group of Royal Marines to repel 4,000 Argentinians with tanks. Donbas has not been part of Ukraine for 8 years or so. Luhansk and Donetsk seceded. Those people are Russian speaking and Russian supporting but wanted independence. The Azovs didn’t like that and have tried since to shell them out of existence.
“That’s some sophistry there, old bean. No, really, that’s just bollocks. It is not up to Russia to invade and never was. And you are assuming that Russian speaking people in Donbas are also in favour of being under Russian control. Not necessarily so.”
You tend to think things so simple, old bean and that’s fogging your brain and making you talk horse shit. Those people in the Donbas region are pro Russian although they wanted independence. What you are saying is that the British shouldn’t have stepped in to defend Poland when Hitler invaded. And you are also forgetting the Minsk agreements.
Okay, I’ve come to a decision. Fisking the above is a waste of effort, despite there being some rich pickings. I will no longer engage with you on this topic. Two reasons – it is tedious being lectured about propaganda by someone who is uncritically regurgitating pro Russian propaganda. Especially when it is obvious that I have taken a nuanced approach to Russia’s position prior to the invasion (I tend to take heed of Hitchens’ views given his first hand experience of the region) and my comments are littered with ‘possibly,’ ‘maybe,’ and ‘probably’ indicating that I reserve judgement on some stories being touted. Your repeated claims that I have been blinded by propaganda are bloody insulting, frankly. Motes and beams spring to mind here.
Secondly, you have sailed close enough to the ad hominem for me to call a halt to it. So, while I have no intention of preventing you from commenting if the subject crops up again and you feel inclined to bombard us with Putin’s latest propaganda, I’ll not be engaging beyond the OP. I’ll leave that to others who have more energy.
That’s fair enough LR, your gaff, your rules. However, just so you know, if you look back up the thread it was you who engaged me on the debate. As for propaganda, I always check things out as far as I can before I open my mouth, and if I can’t bring reciepts if needed I don’t bother to comment.
Yes, I did engage. I just decided that it is no longer worth the effort for the reasons given. Beyond that, we haven’t fallen out.
Can someone point me to the measures that have followed revelations of atrocities by Ukrainian troops, such as the shooting of POWs?
I mean, there must be some? Surely?
None that I can see. I’m guessing we’ll have to see the end of this nonsense before we can start sorting through the various claims of who-did-what-to-whom. There’s lots of propaganda being pushed by both sides with asymmetric claims of atrocities being false staged. Although the Western media are giving greater credence to Ukrainian claims at the present time I hope a future war crimes tribunal will be forensic, neutral and apolitical regarding these matters. That’s probably a vain hope though.
As in most conflicts, likely that there were war-crimes on both sides.
In mitigation, if the Russians hadn’t invaded, how many war crimes would there have been?
In a nutshell, yes, this.
It’s also worth noting that the Finns are getting twitchy and talking about joining NATO. Now, who’s fault is that? Given that the Finns have first hand experience of Russian aggression and are seeing it playing out with another neighbour, I’d say that’s fairly obvious. Russia’s response to this is to issue threats. Well, that’s going to work well, isn’t it? If Russia doesn’t want to see NATO expansion in the Nordic states or other erstwhile Soviet ones, they are going the right way about driving them into NATO’s arms. My sympathy is somewhat limited.
I must admit to enjoying a certain amount of schadenfreude toward Putin about all this. His attacks on his neighbours have been to create a buffer state (as per old Warsaw Pact borders) between NATO and Russia, but by invading Ukraine he has essentially made that whole problem worse and will end up having MORE NATO states bordering Russia than before.
So his invasion has not just failed (even on it’s own terms), but made matters worse in exactly the circumstances in which the invasion was meant to improve it.
I hope he has time to ponder and regret this decision before the KGB take him away…
The narrative is shuffling sideways yet again, look a squirrel:
“Three US Intel Officials Tell NBC News That the “Intelligence” Biden Released on Russia/Ukraine Was Made Up
NBC News on Wednesday evening casually admitted that the “intelligence” Biden released claiming Russia was planning a false flag operation as a pretext to invade Ukraine was totally made up.
There were also claims of chemical weapons or Russia asking China for help.
Apparently it was all made up.”
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/04/three-us-intel-officials-tell-nbc-news-intelligence-biden-released-russia-ukraine-made-video/
Colour me surprised.
Leaving aside morality, since that’s a whole different argument which can go round in circles…
Is the invasion illegal?
According to what laws or treaties?
International law really only comes from treaties and ‘accepted norms’ of behaviour – there isn’t an over-arching law that governs all the nations that we’ve all agreed to.
Russia is a sovereign state, so if it chooses to accede from a treaty or behave against the norms – that doesn’t make things illegal per se.
I remember that the Russian parliament (or equivalent) gave Putin authorisation to use the military abroad for this purpose, which makes it legal under Russian law.
I guess that going around blowing stuff up is against Ukrainian law, however, the Ukrainian law doesn’t apply to Russia and Russian law has been passed that says its ok to go and blow stuff up in Ukraine. It all gets very confusing.
PS. I’m not going into accusations of war crimes or any particular actions. As I’ve said before, there’s just too much propaganda flying around to know what to believe at the minute. I’m just talking general ‘legalities’ of invading somewhere.